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I mean .. do you enjoy the work? I write Haskell, I make computer games, I make web apps. Mostly because it's fun and satisfying. I'm also quite good at it and

I mean .. do you enjoy the work? I write Haskell, I make computer games, I make web apps. Mostly because it's fun and satisfying. I'm also quite good at it and it comes easily to me. I remember when I decided to go into engineering, a peer of mine from high school said "whateveracct, you're top of your class. Why aren't you going into medicine in order to do something more Worthwhile with your life?" Stuck with me ever since. I was repulsed by the mindset but I couldn't word why at the time. I later realized that it smelled of a deeply nihilistic (as in Nietzsche's ideas) view of the world. Ressentiment comes to mind. Spending my conscious hours working with computers is a less nihilistic use of my time. I am not deferring this life's happiness and agency in order to "have made an impact" when my life is over and useless to me. If you want more philosophy, consider Plato's Republic. An ideal society doesn't necessarily have everyone doing Most Important and Dire Work. It doesn't even have them doing what they're most "skilled" at! Instead, it has everyone living in alignment with their souls' desires and preferences. (e.g. A frail person with a Warrior's Soul should be a soldier before a strong person with an Artisan's Soul.)

amelius 5y ago
> I later realized that it smelled of a deeply nihilistic (as in Nietzsche's ideas) view of the world. Who says you can't enjoy work in a different field, e.g. medicine? Perhaps you can even combine those skills with computer programming. E.g. build an exoskeleton that makes partially paralyzed people walk again.
no_wizard 5y ago
Yes, I genuinely do enjoy the work and I derive happiness in my field, in fact I want to do more not less to drive the field forward. That does not mean I don’t sometimes feel the guilt of not being apart of something that drives humanity forward, though, even if all I could contribute was working the website that raises awareness instead! I just know what I’m capable of, but the reality vs the ideal is the philosophical struggle here for me. I instead try to make conscious investments to try and move things forward and make personal choices consciously to issues like this as best as I reasonably can. I still feel guilty sometimes I’m not working on something like raising the perception of the safety of nuclear energy ya know
mpalmer 5y ago
In Nietzsche's words: > A nihilist is a man who judges of the world as it is that it ought not to be, and of the world as it ought to be that it does not exist. According to this view, our existence (action, suffering, willing, feeling) has no meaning: the pathos of 'in vain' is the nihilists' pathos – at the same time, as pathos, an inconsistency on the part of the nihilists. Where is Nietzsche's nihilism in what you describe? How is your peer's worldview nihilistic when they place a high value on the effect of your potential actions on the world? Surely for a nihilist, "to have made an impact" is a non-goal.
- whateveracct 5y ago
  > Surely for a nihilist, "to have made an impact" is a non-goal. Not when the reason for making that impact is for, say, leaving a legacy after your death, getting into heaven (Christianity is very nihilistic according to Nietzsche), "having done 'something' with your life." Those are all very nihilistic-as-in-Nietzsche. Nihilism is first and foremost deferring this life for something else, and I think my peer's views definitely fell into that definition.
  - mpalmer 5y ago
    > Nihilism is first and foremost deferring this life for something else. Anything you can cite for this? It doesn't sound like any kind of nihilism I'm familiar with but I'm interested to know more.
    - whateveracct 5y ago
      Hm it was how my professors in school taught nihilism and Nietzsche. It was definitely a high level takeaway from many readings we did and not a single quote or citation. But it was on the exam ;) I don't have any sources behind that atm, but I'd guess it would be somewhere around the discussion of the afterlife and how it is a Christian driver of nihilism.
gnramires 5y ago
I... have to disagree. Either view is too simple. You're looking for balance of "saving the world" (i.e. our responsibility with civilization and all lifeforms) and "enjoy your life". Clearly if everyone is concerned exclusively with enjoying their lives (i.e. hyper-hedonism), society collapses; that's deeply irresponsible. If everyone is also hyper-focused on self-propagation of our species with zero regard to our actual experience as conscious beings with rich inner lives, then clearly there's the risk of indeed making our inner lives much worse than they could be. A system I've seen recommended here to think about it is (I've seen it related to Ikigai, a Japanese concept): you need to find a balance between your needs and experience, your skills and potential, and what's good for society at large (in a soft max-min). I think overall, however, if we give it a little thought it's easy to find something aligned with our interests and potential that can really make a good impact. If you're interested I recommend the Effective Altruism community for a take on this (they're largely focused on more tangible things like Earning to Give) and 80000 hours. In all likelihood, just by being a functional member of our society (and giving what you can), if you don't work for some obviously evil enterprise (idk, making hyper-addictive things, oil field discovery, or something like that), you're probably helping society. I encourage a different path as well: if you can program (or develop technology) and you're entrepreneurial (many people around here?) you can most likely make something that will make a good impact on society and even civilization at large. Furthering education with online tools, making educational games (or otherwise that promote growth and reflection), making tools more accessible, ... , improving the robustness and reliability of our systems, ..., the list goes on -- why not fulfill your potential to the best you can? Invent the future, Hack the planet.
- whateveracct 5y ago
  > why not fulfill your potential to the best you can? Invent the future, Hack the planet. This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If I just use my programming skills to automate some common tasks, make some nice webapps, make some fun or artful video games, etc..that feels like enough. As far as "why not?"..because the things I list are more interesting and fun for me. And they're already constrained enough by capitalism to "provide value." And to act like they are not worthwhile life pursuits because they aren't pushing humanity forward is a nihilistic viewpoint because it's focused on spending my life so that after-my-life benefits as if that makes it more morally correct. Structurally, that's the same mindset as "do good deeds so you go to heaven." Just with a secular greater good. Nihilism nonetheless.

amelius 5y ago

> I later realized that it smelled of a deeply nihilistic (as in Nietzsche's ideas) view of the world. Who says you can't enjoy work in a different field, e.g. medicine? Perhaps you can even combine those skills with computer programming. E.g. build an exoskeleton that makes partially paralyzed people walk again.

no_wizard 5y ago

Yes, I genuinely do enjoy the work and I derive happiness in my field, in fact I want to do more not less to drive the field forward. That does not mean I don’t sometimes feel the guilt of not being apart of something that drives humanity forward, though, even if all I could contribute was working the website that raises awareness instead! I just know what I’m capable of, but the reality vs the ideal is the philosophical struggle here for me. I instead try to make conscious investments to try and move things forward and make personal choices consciously to issues like this as best as I reasonably can. I still feel guilty sometimes I’m not working on something like raising the perception of the safety of nuclear energy ya know

mpalmer 5y ago

In Nietzsche's words: > A nihilist is a man who judges of the world as it is that it ought not to be, and of the world as it ought to be that it does not exist. According to this view, our existence (action, suffering, willing, feeling) has no meaning: the pathos of 'in vain' is the nihilists' pathos – at the same time, as pathos, an inconsistency on the part of the nihilists. Where is Nietzsche's nihilism in what you describe? How is your peer's worldview nihilistic when they place a high value on the effect of your potential actions on the world? Surely for a nihilist, "to have made an impact" is a non-goal.

whateveracct 5y ago
> Surely for a nihilist, "to have made an impact" is a non-goal. Not when the reason for making that impact is for, say, leaving a legacy after your death, getting into heaven (Christianity is very nihilistic according to Nietzsche), "having done 'something' with your life." Those are all very nihilistic-as-in-Nietzsche. Nihilism is first and foremost deferring this life for something else, and I think my peer's views definitely fell into that definition.
- mpalmer 5y ago
  > Nihilism is first and foremost deferring this life for something else. Anything you can cite for this? It doesn't sound like any kind of nihilism I'm familiar with but I'm interested to know more.
  - whateveracct 5y ago
    Hm it was how my professors in school taught nihilism and Nietzsche. It was definitely a high level takeaway from many readings we did and not a single quote or citation. But it was on the exam ;) I don't have any sources behind that atm, but I'd guess it would be somewhere around the discussion of the afterlife and how it is a Christian driver of nihilism.

gnramires 5y ago

I... have to disagree. Either view is too simple. You're looking for balance of "saving the world" (i.e. our responsibility with civilization and all lifeforms) and "enjoy your life". Clearly if everyone is concerned exclusively with enjoying their lives (i.e. hyper-hedonism), society collapses; that's deeply irresponsible. If everyone is also hyper-focused on self-propagation of our species with zero regard to our actual experience as conscious beings with rich inner lives, then clearly there's the risk of indeed making our inner lives much worse than they could be. A system I've seen recommended here to think about it is (I've seen it related to Ikigai, a Japanese concept): you need to find a balance between your needs and experience, your skills and potential, and what's good for society at large (in a soft max-min). I think overall, however, if we give it a little thought it's easy to find something aligned with our interests and potential that can really make a good impact. If you're interested I recommend the Effective Altruism community for a take on this (they're largely focused on more tangible things like Earning to Give) and 80000 hours. In all likelihood, just by being a functional member of our society (and giving what you can), if you don't work for some obviously evil enterprise (idk, making hyper-addictive things, oil field discovery, or something like that), you're probably helping society. I encourage a different path as well: if you can program (or develop technology) and you're entrepreneurial (many people around here?) you can most likely make something that will make a good impact on society and even civilization at large. Furthering education with online tools, making educational games (or otherwise that promote growth and reflection), making tools more accessible, ... , improving the robustness and reliability of our systems, ..., the list goes on -- why not fulfill your potential to the best you can? Invent the future, Hack the planet.

whateveracct 5y ago
> why not fulfill your potential to the best you can? Invent the future, Hack the planet. This is exactly what I'm talking about though. If I just use my programming skills to automate some common tasks, make some nice webapps, make some fun or artful video games, etc..that feels like enough. As far as "why not?"..because the things I list are more interesting and fun for me. And they're already constrained enough by capitalism to "provide value." And to act like they are not worthwhile life pursuits because they aren't pushing humanity forward is a nihilistic viewpoint because it's focused on spending my life so that after-my-life benefits as if that makes it more morally correct. Structurally, that's the same mindset as "do good deeds so you go to heaven." Just with a secular greater good. Nihilism nonetheless.