3 ms·

> a cursory google shows that the mongolian words for steel and iron are similar to the ones in Chinese, my conjecture is that the chinese words are actually lo

by oefrha 5y ago

> a cursory google shows that the mongolian words for steel and iron are similar to the ones in Chinese, my conjecture is that the chinese words are actually loaned from a barbarian culture not the other way round.. (genghis khan probably came from a smithy family btw) Your conjecture about etymology makes no sense as the Chinese character 鐵 for iron dates back at least to small seal script[1] from a cursory search[2], and small seal script predates Genghis Khan by about 1400 years. Bronze metallurgy was in China for even longer,[3] pretty sure that was way before there was any meaningful contact with "barbarians". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_seal_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_seal_script [2] http://xh.5156edu.com/hzyb/a20196b17789c99815d.html http://xh.5156edu.com/hzyb/a20196b17789c99815d.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_China Edit: I misread [2]. The character dates back at least to large seal script which is older.

gradschoolfail 5y ago
Etymology is almost always speculative but phonetic loans have to be considered separately from typographic history. There are at least 2 different chinese characters for iron, and the one in common use, the one you mention, has a different old chinese pronunciation (from the turko-mongolic word). The radical for the popular version clues one in to the original non barbarian pronunciation. (Maybe it referred to something else.) The radical for the other one means “barbarian” https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/銕#Chinese https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/銕#Chinese It is not uncommon for chinese characters to be written the same but pronounced differently (and meaning something else) throughout the ages. And for the meaning and pronunciations of different characters to mix or merge Indeed according to historian David Wagner, “ The evidence presented thus far suggests that iron-smelting techniques developed in the West had by the eighth century BC been brought by nomadic peoples of Central Asia all the way to the Pacific coast, and that these techniques diffused to the smiths of the Chinese states by way of various non-Chinese peoples of the northwest, in what is now Xinjiang. ” http://donwagner.dk/EARFE/EARFE.html http://donwagner.dk/EARFE/EARFE.html
- oefrha 5y ago
  Thanks for the link to the paper. 8th century BCE is earlier than long before the earliest meaningful contact between China and Central Asia previously known to me, in the form of the Silk Road. And that's two millennia before the Mongols started having written history!
  - gradschoolfail 5y ago
    Also wanted to mention that bronze metallurgy is often considered elitist compared to iron metallurgy because 1)tin ores are less abundant 2) techniques are more intricate. Iron tech is pretty much the first mass tech, if zeroth is fire/fermentation or if those were too easy to be considered tech.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      Tin requires a supply chain[1], but bronze requires no special technology to create. Refining iron is much more difficult, which is why we had bronze first. Pottery long predates ironworking. So does agriculture. I'm not sure how you're defining "mass technology", but ironworking isn't the first one. [1] It's not just tin. Copper has to be sourced from specific locations too.
      - gradschoolfail 5y ago
        Bronze: yeah I should have clarified that for bronze i mean the whole bronze business, including making moulds and such. Iron and steel is like photography compared to painting you need less raw skill to be commercially viable once you can get past acquiring the stuff to get started Mass technology: I was thinking of programming. You have a class of people distinguished by their skill. Sometimes you even have a representative in the pantheon (Wayland) Pottery and agriculture is “too easy”
- BadInformatics 5y ago
  Trying to interpret individual radicals of a character as standalone components using their original meaning is enticing, but more often than not incorrect. For example, the character for maternal aunt uses the same radical. Phonetic-semantic compound characters are very, very, common. The standalone pronunciation of 夷 doesn't appear to have turkic/steppe origins either [1]. Moreover, we know Mongolian writing (because of the geopolitics of the time and its status as a younger written tradition) borrowed quite liberally from its southern neighbours. Including, but not limited to, China [2]. So while Wagner's point about proliferation of ironmaking techniques from outside the (nominal) Chinese state at the time makes sense, the whole phonetic angle doesn't. As for the points about centralization and family name elitism, the first lasted less than 200 years, by which time many formerly aristocratic family names had become _so_ diluted so as to be almost meaningless. One of the main conceits of a major character in RoTK is that he's an average Joe who only gets a modicum of respect for having the same surname as the dynastic family. It also completely ignores the existence of profession-based surnames like 匠 ("artisan", notably 1/2 of 铁匠/blacksmith). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongyi#Yi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongyi#Yi [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_writing_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_writing_systems

by oefrha 5y ago

gradschoolfail 5y ago

Etymology is almost always speculative but phonetic loans have to be considered separately from typographic history. There are at least 2 different chinese characters for iron, and the one in common use, the one you mention, has a different old chinese pronunciation (from the turko-mongolic word). The radical for the popular version clues one in to the original non barbarian pronunciation. (Maybe it referred to something else.) The radical for the other one means “barbarian” https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/銕#Chinese https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/銕#Chinese It is not uncommon for chinese characters to be written the same but pronounced differently (and meaning something else) throughout the ages. And for the meaning and pronunciations of different characters to mix or merge Indeed according to historian David Wagner, “ The evidence presented thus far suggests that iron-smelting techniques developed in the West had by the eighth century BC been brought by nomadic peoples of Central Asia all the way to the Pacific coast, and that these techniques diffused to the smiths of the Chinese states by way of various non-Chinese peoples of the northwest, in what is now Xinjiang. ” http://donwagner.dk/EARFE/EARFE.html http://donwagner.dk/EARFE/EARFE.html

oefrha 5y ago
Thanks for the link to the paper. 8th century BCE is earlier than long before the earliest meaningful contact between China and Central Asia previously known to me, in the form of the Silk Road. And that's two millennia before the Mongols started having written history!
- gradschoolfail 5y ago
  Also wanted to mention that bronze metallurgy is often considered elitist compared to iron metallurgy because 1)tin ores are less abundant 2) techniques are more intricate. Iron tech is pretty much the first mass tech, if zeroth is fire/fermentation or if those were too easy to be considered tech.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Tin requires a supply chain[1], but bronze requires no special technology to create. Refining iron is much more difficult, which is why we had bronze first. Pottery long predates ironworking. So does agriculture. I'm not sure how you're defining "mass technology", but ironworking isn't the first one. [1] It's not just tin. Copper has to be sourced from specific locations too.
    - gradschoolfail 5y ago
      Bronze: yeah I should have clarified that for bronze i mean the whole bronze business, including making moulds and such. Iron and steel is like photography compared to painting you need less raw skill to be commercially viable once you can get past acquiring the stuff to get started Mass technology: I was thinking of programming. You have a class of people distinguished by their skill. Sometimes you even have a representative in the pantheon (Wayland) Pottery and agriculture is “too easy”
BadInformatics 5y ago
Trying to interpret individual radicals of a character as standalone components using their original meaning is enticing, but more often than not incorrect. For example, the character for maternal aunt uses the same radical. Phonetic-semantic compound characters are very, very, common. The standalone pronunciation of 夷 doesn't appear to have turkic/steppe origins either [1]. Moreover, we know Mongolian writing (because of the geopolitics of the time and its status as a younger written tradition) borrowed quite liberally from its southern neighbours. Including, but not limited to, China [2]. So while Wagner's point about proliferation of ironmaking techniques from outside the (nominal) Chinese state at the time makes sense, the whole phonetic angle doesn't. As for the points about centralization and family name elitism, the first lasted less than 200 years, by which time many formerly aristocratic family names had become _so_ diluted so as to be almost meaningless. One of the main conceits of a major character in RoTK is that he's an average Joe who only gets a modicum of respect for having the same surname as the dynastic family. It also completely ignores the existence of profession-based surnames like 匠 ("artisan", notably 1/2 of 铁匠/blacksmith). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongyi#Yi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongyi#Yi [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_writing_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_writing_systems