5 ms·

The Vinland Map is awash in 20th-century ink

155 points by weare138 5y ago

madaxe_again 5y ago
So many "artefacts" appeared in the early 20th century, many of which are now cornerstones of our understanding of various different histories, that one has to wonder just how many are fabrications that haven't been subjected to sufficient scrutiny due to their reified status. I mean, the Vinland Map was always out on the fringes, but less "revelatory" fakes could pass as real with little to no controversy, and have a significant impact on historical studies if not identified as a fake at the time of "discovery".
- njharman 5y ago
  Tis why scientists and historians when presented with a single "fact" throw up their arms and exclaim "Well that proves it!" No point in looking for collaborating or conflicting evidence. Or, to reexamine when new technology or techniques arise.
sharmin123 5y ago
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mzi 5y ago
This is more a conclusion of something suspected since it was first revealed, and not something that will rock the foundations of science.
abstrakraft 5y ago
I'm really curious what this means in the larger context: does it refute the fundamental evidence that Norsemen reached the New World before Colombus, or is there enough other evidence that this is no big deal?
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  No, we have archaeological remains from where the Norsemen camped in North America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows This doesn't change any understanding of history.
  - abstrakraft 5y ago
    I hoped as much...so what are the repercussions, if any?
    - stan_rogers 5y ago
      None, really. People will still pay extraordinary amounts of money for old documents with shaky provenance on the basis that they'll have it and you can't, only to find out they've been duped. T'was ever and t'will ever be thus.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        At least people know an NFT is genuine when people pay extraordinary amounts for a number on the basis that they’ll have it and you “can’t”.
        input_sh 5y ago
        Except everyone has access to any NFT in the same quality as its "owner", you just have to look up the transaction to access it.
        simonh 5y ago
        An NFT is just a number on a ledger. The fact it represents ownership of anything is an agreement, and there’s nothing about the NFT itself that enforces that agreement. What are you going to do about it if someone, maybe the artist or their estate decides to disagree?
        5y ago
FatalLogic 5y ago
The backstory is interesting. The map first showed up in the 1950s, bound into a book that was owned by a Spanish-Italian dealer, Enzo Ferrajoli. He did not explain where it had come from, but that wasn't uncommon in the years after the chaos of WWII. Ferrajoli sold the book and map for $3,500 to a US dealer, Laurence Witten, who also further obscured its origins[0]. Later, a benefactor purchased it on behalf of Yale, for $300,000 Notably, when Yale announced their discovery of the map, in 1965. The original source, Ferrajoli, was already in prison in Spain, charged with stealing other manuscripts (which he had also sold to Yale the year before)[1] edit: added a citation [0] https://www.maphistory.info/saenger.html https://www.maphistory.info/saenger.html para. 13- [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1964/11/07/archives/dealer-defends-rare-yale-mss-says-they-were-not-stolen-but-sold-by.html https://www.nytimes.com/1964/11/07/archives/dealer-defends-r...
- pvg 5y ago
  The story is somewhat similar to that of Drake's Plate of Brass, shifted by a few decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake%27s_Plate_of_Brass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake%27s_Plate_of_Brass
redis_mlc 5y ago
FYI: - half of all art works on the US market today are fake (source: US LEO) - that makes old collections very valuable since the art has provenance - but note that even very old fakes are valuable. A work by a master faker can still be a masterpiece. You could make a lot of money by buying those and holding. - anything in bronze is valuable, whether new or old.
njharman 5y ago
Y'd think if you had access to 1400 "paper", the effort of making your own gall ink for your forgery. It ain't hard. Maybe the galls aren't common in Norway? Otoh the deception lasted 100yrs.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  > Otoh the deception lasted 100yrs. Not really. Pretty much from the inception, the academic community was strongly skeptical of its authenticity. While Yale has only recently admitted that it's a forgery, that's probably due in large part to reluctance to admit that they spent a lot of money on a pretty clear forgery.
cafard 5y ago
'I have "serious reservations" about it--the polite scholarly term for saying that you suspect fakery.... Not one of the Danish and Icelandic scholars who I consulted at Copenhagen in May 1969 believes the Vinland Map to be genuine, although they have every national and sentimental reason to accept it as such.' Samuel Eliot Morison, The European Discovery of America: The Northern Voyages, notes to Chapter III, "The Norsemen and Vinland".

155 points by weare138 5y ago

So many "artefacts" appeared in the early 20th century, many of which are now cornerstones of our understanding of various different histories, that one has to wonder just how many are fabrications that haven't been subjected to sufficient scrutiny due to their reified status. I mean, the Vinland Map was always out on the fringes, but less "revelatory" fakes could pass as real with little to no controversy, and have a significant impact on historical studies if not identified as a fake at the time of "discovery".

njharman 5y ago
Tis why scientists and historians when presented with a single "fact" throw up their arms and exclaim "Well that proves it!" No point in looking for collaborating or conflicting evidence. Or, to reexamine when new technology or techniques arise.

sharmin123 5y ago

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mzi 5y ago

This is more a conclusion of something suspected since it was first revealed, and not something that will rock the foundations of science.

abstrakraft 5y ago

I'm really curious what this means in the larger context: does it refute the fundamental evidence that Norsemen reached the New World before Colombus, or is there enough other evidence that this is no big deal?

bpodgursky 5y ago
No, we have archaeological remains from where the Norsemen camped in North America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows This doesn't change any understanding of history.
- abstrakraft 5y ago
  I hoped as much...so what are the repercussions, if any?
  - stan_rogers 5y ago
    None, really. People will still pay extraordinary amounts of money for old documents with shaky provenance on the basis that they'll have it and you can't, only to find out they've been duped. T'was ever and t'will ever be thus.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      At least people know an NFT is genuine when people pay extraordinary amounts for a number on the basis that they’ll have it and you “can’t”.
      - input_sh 5y ago
        Except everyone has access to any NFT in the same quality as its "owner", you just have to look up the transaction to access it.
      - simonh 5y ago
        An NFT is just a number on a ledger. The fact it represents ownership of anything is an agreement, and there’s nothing about the NFT itself that enforces that agreement. What are you going to do about it if someone, maybe the artist or their estate decides to disagree?
        5y ago

FatalLogic 5y ago

The backstory is interesting. The map first showed up in the 1950s, bound into a book that was owned by a Spanish-Italian dealer, Enzo Ferrajoli. He did not explain where it had come from, but that wasn't uncommon in the years after the chaos of WWII. Ferrajoli sold the book and map for $3,500 to a US dealer, Laurence Witten, who also further obscured its origins[0]. Later, a benefactor purchased it on behalf of Yale, for $300,000 Notably, when Yale announced their discovery of the map, in 1965. The original source, Ferrajoli, was already in prison in Spain, charged with stealing other manuscripts (which he had also sold to Yale the year before)[1] edit: added a citation [0] https://www.maphistory.info/saenger.html https://www.maphistory.info/saenger.html para. 13- [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1964/11/07/archives/dealer-defends-rare-yale-mss-says-they-were-not-stolen-but-sold-by.html https://www.nytimes.com/1964/11/07/archives/dealer-defends-r...

pvg 5y ago
The story is somewhat similar to that of Drake's Plate of Brass, shifted by a few decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake%27s_Plate_of_Brass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake%27s_Plate_of_Brass

redis_mlc 5y ago

FYI: - half of all art works on the US market today are fake (source: US LEO) - that makes old collections very valuable since the art has provenance - but note that even very old fakes are valuable. A work by a master faker can still be a masterpiece. You could make a lot of money by buying those and holding. - anything in bronze is valuable, whether new or old.

njharman 5y ago

Y'd think if you had access to 1400 "paper", the effort of making your own gall ink for your forgery. It ain't hard. Maybe the galls aren't common in Norway? Otoh the deception lasted 100yrs.

jcranmer 5y ago
> Otoh the deception lasted 100yrs. Not really. Pretty much from the inception, the academic community was strongly skeptical of its authenticity. While Yale has only recently admitted that it's a forgery, that's probably due in large part to reluctance to admit that they spent a lot of money on a pretty clear forgery.

cafard 5y ago

'I have "serious reservations" about it--the polite scholarly term for saying that you suspect fakery.... Not one of the Danish and Icelandic scholars who I consulted at Copenhagen in May 1969 believes the Vinland Map to be genuine, although they have every national and sentimental reason to accept it as such.' Samuel Eliot Morison, The European Discovery of America: The Northern Voyages, notes to Chapter III, "The Norsemen and Vinland".