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Sweden delivered the world’s first fossil fuel-free steel
- swebs 5y agoWasn't all steel before the 1800's or so made with wood?
- chongli 5y agoIt was made with charcoal which is made from wood, yes. But charcoal is man-made coal which is still bad from an emissions perspective. This process, on the other hand, does not use coal at all.
- sp332 5y agoCharcoal is nearly carbon-neutral, with the carbon coming from the air via trees or other biomass. It's bad for deforestation reasons, but it's not carbon-intensive.
- OrvalWintermute 5y agocharcoal can be good or bad from a forestation perspective. Good is a healthy cycle and removal of trees as a contributor to that process. Forests should not envelope all of the world, as that would kill of a number of other ecosystems. The idea that forest should dominate everywhere is actually anti-ecological, in that it disrupts that natural balance. We have in many cases, localized growth of forest, and regional deforestation [1]. Because the trees making up these ecological systems are local/regional also, we should seek to undo that damage where possible. [1] https://blog.tentree.com/fact-check-are-there-really-more-trees-today-than-100-years-ago/ https://blog.tentree.com/fact-check-are-there-really-more-tr...
- nsonha 5y ago> The idea that forest should dominate everywhere is actually anti-ecological How do you define "ecological"? I would define it as nature without human intervention. Besides, there is no reason to believe that forest would "envelop all of the world" in such a way that is unsustainable because nature has its own check and balance for that. So I don't buy the argument that some of the activities that we do are beneficial to nature. You can of course argue that they are sustainable and not destructive in long term.
- sulam 5y agoLiving in California, I can tell you that yes, nature has checks and balances for that. The main check is fire, and we have suppressed it for decades. The forest density in managed national forests here vs unmanaged wilderness areas is something like 10 to 1 I’d say. And now the fire is coming anyway.
- VoxPelli 5y agoIt does temporarily release CO2 into the atmosphere until new trees have absorbed it. So it will temporarily not be carbon-neutral, but be neutral over time if the average amount of coal stored in trees doesn’t get affected by the new use of trees.
- extropy 5y agoCould be seem as cannon negative, since the carbon is permanently captured in the steel.
- jhgb 5y ago> But charcoal is man-made coal It was fossil-fuel-free, though. Which makes the headline wrong.
- missedthecue 5y agoPrior to the invention of the Bessemer Process, it was mostly made with charcoal, so yes. Of course it was also very expensive and made in small batches.
- aurizon 5y agothere are new exploited deposits of hydrogen, formed at great depths under high pressure and temperatures. https://hydroma.ca/en/ https://hydroma.ca/en/ is one I do not know if there are more and their production volume?
- extropy 5y agoIt's still a fossil fuel though. Not emitting climate affecting gasses one but still. Turns out releasing hydrogen in the atmosphere has some greenhouse effects: http://www.ghgonline.org/otherhydrogen.htm http://www.ghgonline.org/otherhydrogen.htm
- aurizon 5y agoNo, It is a reaction between buried iron oxide and water. This is very high temperature high pressure reaction. The iron oxide changes oxidation state, releasing hydrogen. Here is one, there are others, like the one I cited. https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202010.0589/v1/download https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202010.0589/v1/download
- azinman2 5y agoIsn’t “green hydrogen” a sham? I thought the production of it wasn’t actually very CO2 friendly and comes out of fossils fuels themselves?
- klyrs 5y agoWell there's "blue hydrogen" and "brown hydrogen" which are produced from natural gas and coal respectively. Green hydrogen is produced through electrolysis, from renewable energy sources like hydro, wind and solar.
- sampo 5y ago> Green hydrogen is produced through electrolysis, from renewable energy sources like hydro, wind and solar. Terminology correction: From low-carbon energy sources, like wind, solar, nuclear and hydro. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jhgb 5y agoGreen hydrogen isn't; the thing you're thinking of isn't called green hydrogen.
- cjblomqvist 5y agoThis particular steel is made to be 100% CO2 neutral (as is all hydrogen in Sweden). Very much most likely made from hydro power (accounts for about 40% of power generation in Sweden - and the owner of most hydro in Sweden, "Waterfall", which is state owned, is a partner in the project) of from wind. Both energy sources is very common in the north of Sweden.
- lucb1e 5y ago> CO2 neutral (as is all hydrogen in Sweden). Very much most likely made from hydro power Now that you put them together like this, I noticed this will probably confuse a lot of people in years to come: hydro power is a very different thing from hydrogen power.
- gus_massa 5y agoI doubt this is the first fossil fuel-free steel, even in modern times. Here in Argentina one of our biggest steel factories had a very big eucalyptus forest just to make coal. From https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceros_Zapla_S.A https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceros_Zapla_S.A Autotranslation: https://translate.google.com/?tab=TT#es/en/Aceros%20Zapla%20(ex-%22Altos%20Hornos%20Zapla%22)%20era%20un%20complejo%20minero-forestal%20sider%C3%BArgico%20que%20se%20encuentra%20en%20el%20departamento%20Palpal%C3%A1%2C%20provincia%20de%20Jujuy%2C%20Argentina.%20Fue%20el%20primer%20centro%20sider%C3%BArgico%20de%20Argentina%2C%20donde%20se%20realiz%C3%B3%20la%20primera%20colada%20de%20arrabio%20el%2011%20de%20octubre%20de%201945%20(70%20a%C3%B1os).%20La%20planta%20se%20encuentra%20a%2013%20km%20de%20San%20Salvador%20de%20Jujuy.%0A%0AContaba%20con%2015.000%20ha%20de%20un%20bosque%20de%2030%20millones%20de%20%C3%A1rboles%20de%20eucaliptos%20para%20extraer%20el%20carb%C3%B3n%20necesario%20en%20el%20proceso%2C%20para%20lo%20cual%20estaba%20el%20pueblo%20Centro%20Forestal.%20El%20complejo%20integraba%20dos%20minas%20de%20mineral%20de%20hierro%3A%20Mina%209%20de%20Octubre%20y%20%22Puesto%20Viejo%22%2C%20a%20no%20m%C3%A1s%20de%2027%20km%20del%20alto%20horno%3B%20y%20la%20explotaci%C3%B3n%20de%20caliza.%0A%0AEn%20la%20actualidad%20la%20fabricaci%C3%B3n%20de%20acero%20es%20a%20partir%20de%20chatarra%20exclusivamente https://translate.google.com/?tab=TT#es/en/Aceros%20Zapla%20... > "Aceros Zapla" (ex- "Altos Hornos Zapla") was a steel forest mining complex located in the department Palpalá province of Jujuy, Argentina. It was the first steel center of Argentina [...] > It had 15,000 ha of a forest of 30 million eucalyptus trees to extract the necessary coal in the process, [...]
- lucb1e 5y agoI'm a bit sad there's so much nitpicking on a good thing. Sure, it's not technically the first. Can we just enjoy the advance of making goods more sustainably?
- wccrawford 5y agoWe absolutely can. But if people lie, they should expect to get called on it.
- VoxPelli 5y agoIt’s the first _coal_ free steel and the vast majority of coal used is fossil and the rest comes from forests that probably wouldn’t be able to sustain the required level of steel production (Sweden produces 80% of the iron ore in the EU and needs its forests for other things than creating steel)
- lucb1e 5y agoYeah, but the amount is what I commented on. At the time of writing, if I remember correctly there was hardly another type of comment to be found.
- yesbut 5y agoHow did they mine the iron ore without fossil fuels? The mining industry accounts for ~10% of world energy consumption. Around ~80% of the world's electricity use.
- oxymoron 5y agoSwedish electricity production is essentially carbon neutral. There’s a 50/50 split between nuclear and renewables. At times, there’s imports from the European grid, which does include coal and gas &c, so by that accounting it may not be fully neutral. However, the mining industry is in the far north which has an abundance of cheap hydropower, so it’s probably true that the ore can be mined entirely using renewable energy in Sweden.
- yesbut 5y ago"can" doesn't mean they are. Sweden produces ~80 million tons of ore per year. I can say with 100% certainty that they are not doing the heavy lifting with renewables.
- oxymoron 5y agoI’m sure there’s machinery in use which is powered by fossil fueles. You did mention separately that the mining industry is a heavy user of electricity, though, so I was referring to that aspect in particular. Apologies for not making that clear.
- VoxPelli 5y agoThey do have a test mine that is carbon free and are working actively on scaling it up: https://www.lkab.com/en/about-lkab/technological-and-process-development/research-collaborations/new-world-standard-for-sustainable-mining/ https://www.lkab.com/en/about-lkab/technological-and-process...
- moogly 5y agoWhat is often forgotten, when mentioning the imports of "dirty" power from abroad, is that Sweden exports way more electricity per year than gets imported (for 2020, 37 TWh exported and 12 TWh imported). Sweden has had an electricity surplus since 2011, mostly due to wind power.
- kleton 5y agoLow temperature electrowinning of iron would be the holy grail https://energy.nl/en/factsheet/low-temperature-electrowinning-for-steelmaking-ulcowin/ https://energy.nl/en/factsheet/low-temperature-electrowinnin...
- tuatoru 5y agoThat is interesting, thanks. If I'm reading the PDF right, it uses about 12 PJ per tonne of iron produced. Best current practice with coking coal is about 15 GJ per tonne.[1] So just a little energy efficiency improvement required. 1. Smil, V. Energy In Nature And Society 2008, p. 283 of paperback.
- jhgb 5y agoThere's also the crazy idea of direct electrochemical reduction of molten ore, which I've seen talked about in connection with lunar applications, but this looks like something you might even try at home (with the right equipment of course).
- null_object 5y agoMore and more I distrust and even begin to resent these high-profile, headline ‘advances’. Sweden is particularly good at this PR effort: always aiming to profile ourselves as the eco-friendly pioneers of the world. But at the same time, ancient woodland is clearcut at an alarming rate, and wood-burning for energy is largely exempted from Sweden’s carbon footprint. Cycling and alternative transport is neglected, while cars just get bigger and spending on roads spirals upwards. But so long as we make headlines for supposedly fossil-free steel, everyone here is proud and happy
- badestrand 5y agoThe headline was not "Everything is perfectly sustainable in Sweden" so I don't understand your criticism here. The world starting to produce steel with hydrogen is a great step. It is not necessary that everything is sustainable already to celebrate or at least posivitely acknowledge this news.
- moogly 5y agoOld-growth forests were largely cut down a long time ago. There's some still left, and the majority (but not all) are protected. The area of 2nd level ("gammelskog"; forests older than 150 years) continues to increase. Overall, Sweden has a higher amount of forested area now than in 1900, and it's not just planted young growth. The "save the forest" campaigns of yore were pretty misinformed.
- tored 5y agoI do agree that Sweden is good at PR when it comes to green policies, but I can’t really agree on all your claims. Cycling neglected? I guess it depends where you live in Sweden but in my city they have added much more bike paths (cykelväg) for several years. It exist regional funds that a kommun can apply for to build more bike paths. Alternative transport? Like what? Sweden has been bad on expanding regional train capacity and instead focused on country wide prestige projects like the high speed rail when most commuters travel regional. Costs for roads will increase as long as population increases are as high as today. That is unavoidable. And seems like the Green Party is all in favor of massive population increase regardless of environmental consequences. Ancient woodland clearcut at alarming rate? Source?
- gerdesj 5y ago... and built a car out of it 8)
- tored 5y agoOne thing the article doesn’t mention is that it takes massive amounts of energy to produce hybrit. LKAB (Government owned ore mining company) will require 55 TWh by the year 2045. That is more than the entire nuclear power production in Sweden today. On top of that the users of hybrit ore (like SSAB, mentioned in the article) to make steel also requires more energy. They say they will use electrolysis to create hydrogen from water and a renewable energy source. If they can make that much hydrogen on that scale is unknown.
- tonfreed 5y agoOk, but where'd they get the carbon content for the steel?