5 ms·

Parent said in his comment, the teachings made his brown skinned child feel inferior, and he didn't feel this way as a child with the old way of teaching.

shadowgovt 5y ago
I see. The pedagogy is flawed if it's raising that question without answering it, but not for raising the question at all; the unfortunate truth of at least living in the US is she's going to deal with a lot of assholes who believe those sorts of things. It's not at all inappropriate to prepare students for that by arming them with better answers. I also went to school in Virginia. The old way of teaching (at least in our school) was to pretend these factors didn't exist at all. This was incongruous with the way people were treated outside school, and led some to wonder what the school was hiding. Kids are perceptive, and they notice if there's a giant hole in what you're allowed to talk about.
- dgfitz 5y ago
  So you’re saying all people were treated as equals at the school you attended as a child, and that you wish that were not the case? Really?
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    Not at all. I'm saying all people were not treated as equals, and when they asked about it they weren't given an answer. The school didn't know how to talk about it at all so it didn't.
    - otterley 5y ago
      I’d score that as “needs improvement.”
    - sul_tasto 5y ago
      It seems like this is an argument for “reeducating” the faculty, not the students…
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- SamPatt 5y ago
  Is school the appropriate place to try to cure all society's ailments though? Empirically it doesn't seem to have worked, even if you think it should be attempted. But I'm skeptical that it's even wise to attempt. Education isn't the same thing as moral instruction. We want secular schools not pseudo-churches.
  - rayusher 5y ago
    1. It needs to start somewhere. 2. Schools have been shown to cure some of society's ailments. One example is providing free pre-k education. Check out this infographic http://www.urbanchildinstitute.org/resources/infographics/pre-k-matters http://www.urbanchildinstitute.org/resources/infographics/pr... IMHO more money needs to put in education.
- Zababa 5y ago
  I think the key part here is "pretend these factors didn't exist at all". I think answering questions when they are raised is very important, and I agree with you that kids are perceptive. On the other hand, they should also be offered a chance to live without thinking about that if it's possible.
- rayiner 5y ago
  Do you think my progressive Maryland school is throwing “skin color is really important in society” while leaving “but all skin colors are equal” out of the discussion? But we’re dealing with kids who haven’t yet been socialized with the ideal of color blindness, like you and I. At the same time, they don’t take what teachers say at face value. Teachers say “skin color is really important” and “America is systemically racist against dark skinned people.” Teachers can say “but all skin colors are equal” but that isn’t necessary what kids take away. What do they mean by “equal?” Is it a euphemism, like so many others we use? Is it moral equivalence rather than literal equality? At the same time, teachers are saying people with different skin colors are different—the kids are taught to celebrate their diversity. And why would so many people think people with dark skin are inferior if there wasn’t some truth to that? You can’t tell second graders that skin color is a big deal but also not a big deal. Also, the premise isn’t true. I grew up in Virginia when it was a red state. I went to college at Georgia Tech, where most of my classmates were from red parts of the south. But I’ve only ever been called a racial slur twice, both times by homeless people who weren’t white. Telling brown kids that society is systemically racist against them when it isn’t true does harm. It divides them from their white peers and makes them look for racism where it might not exist. The TV show “White Lotus” actually has a great take on this. Native Hawaiian girl goes to elite school and visits a Hawaiian resort with her friend’s wealthy white parents. She’s learned CRT education at her college and become woke. She convinces a native Hawaiian hotel worker to ignore his moral compass by telling him to steal her friend’s family’s jewelry because after all white people stolen Hawaii from people like him. He gets arrested and it ruins his life. And she strains her relationship with her white friend, who genuinely cared about her as a person. As the parent of a brown girl the show articulated exactly what I’m afraid of with CRT education.
  - epakai 5y ago
    > Telling brown kids that society is systemically racist against them when it isn’t true does harm. Is it also harmful to tell them society isn't systematically racist when it is true? I'm not sure 2nd grade is the place for this discussion, but there are lots of pre-existing divisions on race that will affect people's interactions. For me it's worth being aware of them, calling them out, and not perpetuating them. We've just been through massive unrest due to policing disparities, and I would want brown kids who are likely to interact police on their own to be aware of some aspects of it.

shadowgovt 5y ago

I see. The pedagogy is flawed if it's raising that question without answering it, but not for raising the question at all; the unfortunate truth of at least living in the US is she's going to deal with a lot of assholes who believe those sorts of things. It's not at all inappropriate to prepare students for that by arming them with better answers. I also went to school in Virginia. The old way of teaching (at least in our school) was to pretend these factors didn't exist at all. This was incongruous with the way people were treated outside school, and led some to wonder what the school was hiding. Kids are perceptive, and they notice if there's a giant hole in what you're allowed to talk about.

dgfitz 5y ago
So you’re saying all people were treated as equals at the school you attended as a child, and that you wish that were not the case? Really?
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  Not at all. I'm saying all people were not treated as equals, and when they asked about it they weren't given an answer. The school didn't know how to talk about it at all so it didn't.
  - otterley 5y ago
    I’d score that as “needs improvement.”
  - sul_tasto 5y ago
    It seems like this is an argument for “reeducating” the faculty, not the students…
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
SamPatt 5y ago
Is school the appropriate place to try to cure all society's ailments though? Empirically it doesn't seem to have worked, even if you think it should be attempted. But I'm skeptical that it's even wise to attempt. Education isn't the same thing as moral instruction. We want secular schools not pseudo-churches.
- rayusher 5y ago
  1. It needs to start somewhere. 2. Schools have been shown to cure some of society's ailments. One example is providing free pre-k education. Check out this infographic http://www.urbanchildinstitute.org/resources/infographics/pre-k-matters http://www.urbanchildinstitute.org/resources/infographics/pr... IMHO more money needs to put in education.
Zababa 5y ago
I think the key part here is "pretend these factors didn't exist at all". I think answering questions when they are raised is very important, and I agree with you that kids are perceptive. On the other hand, they should also be offered a chance to live without thinking about that if it's possible.
rayiner 5y ago
Do you think my progressive Maryland school is throwing “skin color is really important in society” while leaving “but all skin colors are equal” out of the discussion? But we’re dealing with kids who haven’t yet been socialized with the ideal of color blindness, like you and I. At the same time, they don’t take what teachers say at face value. Teachers say “skin color is really important” and “America is systemically racist against dark skinned people.” Teachers can say “but all skin colors are equal” but that isn’t necessary what kids take away. What do they mean by “equal?” Is it a euphemism, like so many others we use? Is it moral equivalence rather than literal equality? At the same time, teachers are saying people with different skin colors are different—the kids are taught to celebrate their diversity. And why would so many people think people with dark skin are inferior if there wasn’t some truth to that? You can’t tell second graders that skin color is a big deal but also not a big deal. Also, the premise isn’t true. I grew up in Virginia when it was a red state. I went to college at Georgia Tech, where most of my classmates were from red parts of the south. But I’ve only ever been called a racial slur twice, both times by homeless people who weren’t white. Telling brown kids that society is systemically racist against them when it isn’t true does harm. It divides them from their white peers and makes them look for racism where it might not exist. The TV show “White Lotus” actually has a great take on this. Native Hawaiian girl goes to elite school and visits a Hawaiian resort with her friend’s wealthy white parents. She’s learned CRT education at her college and become woke. She convinces a native Hawaiian hotel worker to ignore his moral compass by telling him to steal her friend’s family’s jewelry because after all white people stolen Hawaii from people like him. He gets arrested and it ruins his life. And she strains her relationship with her white friend, who genuinely cared about her as a person. As the parent of a brown girl the show articulated exactly what I’m afraid of with CRT education.
- epakai 5y ago
  > Telling brown kids that society is systemically racist against them when it isn’t true does harm. Is it also harmful to tell them society isn't systematically racist when it is true? I'm not sure 2nd grade is the place for this discussion, but there are lots of pre-existing divisions on race that will affect people's interactions. For me it's worth being aware of them, calling them out, and not perpetuating them. We've just been through massive unrest due to policing disparities, and I would want brown kids who are likely to interact police on their own to be aware of some aspects of it.