5 ms·

If I say I'm hetero and only date biologically born women, wouldn't I be considered transphobic and be ostracized by the woke community?

by shtps 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
progre 5y ago
I doubt that. Resonable people recognice that there is a diffrence between a personal preference of who to fuck, and telling others who they should prefer to fuck.
- drstewart 5y ago
  "Reasonable people" seems awfully "no true Scotsman"-y to me
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    But I don't know that it actually is. There's no “everyone will be fine with this” – implied is a “most people are reasonable”, so it isn't the right form of argument to be a No True Scotsman.
  - progre 5y ago
    No, it's a simple inital assumption about good faith actors. In my opinion, this is a strategy that often pays off.
orwin 5y ago
No. One of my friend is lesbian and active LGBTQ+ member (pro-bono doctor for the one who needs it in her community now, that's what i mean by active), and she knows i only date biologically born women, her friends knows it, never had any issue with them.
- Clampower 5y ago
  I’m a homosexual man. I’ve been called out by woke friends because I’ve said that generally gay men are not attracted to vaginas. I’ve been called closed minded and a right wing asshole for saying that I would not date trans men, and that heterosexual intercourse will never be gay. I have to keep these opinions quiet now because of the negative social backlash I’ve gotten. I can’t believe we live in times where we have people in the lgbt community who criticize homosexual men as being “genital fetishists” for being attracted to only men of the same sex.
  - ptr2voidStar 5y ago
    The left is eating itself up, and it's an absolute joy to behold - because this was never about equality and justice, it was always, and has always (as ALL relationships between humans) being about POWER. This has always been a POWER GRAB masquerading as "civility".
    - mrow84 5y ago
      Saying that political thinking, of any stripe, is about power is pretty much a tautology. Similarly, equality and justice are about power relations, so there isn’t the contradiction you seem to believe there either. Politics is the process of distributing power, and left wing politics aims to distribute power more widely, whereas right wing politics aims to concentrate it.
      - ptr2voidStar 5y ago
        > Saying that political thinking, of any stripe, is about power is pretty much a tautology. I never stated that (you did). I merely pointed out the fact that humans are largely hypocrites and duplicitous by nature. ALL interactions between humans is underpinned by power. In the past, the power grab was explicit, nowadays said power is sought after behind the veneer of "civility" and "niceness". It is basic human nature that I'm criticising. The left are just as bad as the right - but at least, with the right - you can see them coming, because they are mostly explicit (at least relative to the left). The left are just as power hungry as the right, but are very well versed in this "we are nice, caring people" act - this is why I (a seeker of the truth - and nothing but the truth), am enjoying their dirty inner workings coming to light.
bennysomething 5y ago
Well there's definitely some people who think that, they say as much on their videos. One I watched claimed the only way to get rid of transphobia was for straight people to understand that you don't get to care about what kind of genitals your date has. You ll find out in bed.
- simonklitj 5y ago
  Interesting! Do I lose the ability to chose based on other things, then? Like, I prefer brunettes, would that be permitted, or should I be hair-color blind and just take what I’m given? I know you’re not an advocate for it, just interesting that some people hold this conviction!
  - sascha_sl 5y ago
    This implies that trans people are deceptive. Is is deception if you prefer brunettes, but the person you're about to be intimate with has dyed their hair?
    - simonklitj 5y ago
      Hopefully it doesn’t! Would you like to point out how I imply that trans people are deceptive? Sure, but my preference for being solely with brunettes is not as strong as my preference for being solely with straight people, so the deception is not equal in its merited response. Perhaps this is bigoted, but I’m sincerely interested in your conviction.
      - sascha_sl 5y ago
        Well, trans is not really a hard factor for attraction. Fully cis-passing trans women exist, even in intimate relationships, and I'd wager not all things that go into that even matter to most people. Feel free to exclude based on physical criteria common in trans people, be it from masculine features, to larger frames to a set of genitals you're not attracted to, but "trans people" as category is way to broad. Because they can functionally be cis women. Unless you have a breeding fetish I guess. Insisting on a separate category feels like people are holding on to bioessentialist feeling that trans women must be men, which would make a cis man gay. Pair that with toxic masculinity and you have one of the reasons for violence particularly against trans women. (I have no personal stake at this, like many trans people I mostly date other trans people, less complicated and your partner has less of a hard time relating to you)
corobo 5y ago
Depends why you're saying it. Context matters. If you're saying it to prove a point I mean yeah people see through that
twic 5y ago
Some people would consider that transphobic: https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-tr... Others would say they're not saying that, but that your preference is influenced by transphobic culture: https://www.curvemag.com/blog/transgender/the-often-misunderstood-premise-of-the-cotton-ceiling/ https://www.curvemag.com/blog/transgender/the-often-misunder... I'm sure others would be fine with it.
- konogasa 5y ago
  I'm trans and I'd be fine with it and I think of the arguments that it's transphobic as misguided at best, malicious at worst. There seems to be a vocal contigent of transwomen who identify as lesbians who try to argue that a lesbian who is not trans and doesn't want to have sex with a transwoman (even one with male genitalia) is transphobic. This sounds to me like a kind of very, very bad pickup line. On the other hand, I'd like to know what the OP, shtps, would think if they dated a transwoman without knowing she was trans and later found out about it. People have committed violent crimes because they didn't know, or at least claimed they didn't know as a defense. So there is something there that needs clearing up. If you're attracted to someone and then later find something about them and decide you're not attracted to them after all, that's not the fault of the person you initially found atttractive. Agreed?
  - shtps 5y ago
    I want to start a family in the traditional sense like my parents and grandparents have done before me, so I would be disappointed to find out I was dating a transwoman. Similarly I'd be disappointed to find out if a woman didn't want children or wanted to live a lifestyle incompatible with my own. It isn't going to work out and I'd have to ultimately call it off. It's not about 'who's at fault' really. It will sooner or later come up and it is better sooner than later for both parties. If I'm dating a woman and she doesn't mention that she already has children, which is a big deal for me, then we're both just wasting our times because that's something I can't compromise on. I don't know why this even needs to be stated, but violence is not an option in either of these cases.
sascha_sl 5y ago
Attraction doesn't work like this. You're not attracted to chromosomes, you're attracted to femininity. I could understand if you'd find some to most trans women not attractive, but a categorical exclusion seems transphobic to me. There are trans women where you really can not tell, even if you're in an intimate relationship. At that point it moves from being a genuine preference to bigotry. But I can see what you're actually asking: Is anyone going to yell at you because you're not dating them. The answer is no. Unless you real question was not a question, but more of an implication that something that literally never happens must happen on a grand scale. Damn the woke mob forcing me to fuck trannies!
goodpoint 5y ago
Refusing to date the whole group due to a choice made in principle is obviously transphobic, by definition. Not being attracted to this or that person is perfectly natural. Reminder: a lot of trans people "pass" perfectly. "ostracized by the woke community" in another strawman.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  Perhaps you want to date a women to find a partner you want to eventually have children with?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jcowell 5y ago
    Yes but even then it’s not “I don’t date trans women” it’s “I don’t taste women who can’t give birth”
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    Then you should rule out the large number of women who either do not want or cannot have children. Perhaps there's something else going on?
howinteresting 5y ago
Trans women are "biologically born women". As a trans person I do not believe in a firm sex/gender distinction. The evidence clearly suggests gender identity (unlike race) has a major biological component.
- konogasa 5y ago
  I'm a trans woman. What evidence is that you are citing?
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/is-gender-identity-biologically-hard-wired https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/is-gender-identity-biologi... and https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/the-biological-roots-of-gender-identity https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/the-biological-roots-of-gen... are good overviews. Case studies like David Reimer are pretty definitive, in my opinion.
    - konogasa 5y ago
      The David Reimer case is not really "evidence" of anything. At best it's more like a hint or a suggestion. "Evidence" should mean there is a scientific theory and someone conducted an experiment to prove or disprove it and, hey, look at the evidence, it tells us something about the theory. The Reimer case was a complete destruction of a person's life, but it was not perpetrated as an experiment of any kind. Although if I remember correctly the perpetrator did claim he was testing a theory, the unethical and haphazard, disorganised way in which he went about it completely discredits any pretense to science. So, other, actual evidence, please? A citation in a journal would do. E.g. Yu & Yu 2017 "Gender identity has a biological component" or something of the sort. Something we can accept is "evidence" in a mainstream, standard sense, not in the sense given to "evidence" by the internet, like "I know of something that agrees with my personal beliefs so it's evidence that I'm right".
amanaplanacanal 5y ago
I think I’m woke, but it seems obvious to me that everybody has sexual preferences that go way beyond the gender of their partner. Some prefer tall and dark, some prefer petite blondes. Some people prefer big black and beautiful. How can we make moral judgement about people’s sexual preferences? I guess the alternative would be that you have to be willing to have sex with everybody of your preferred sex? Are there people who actually think this?

If I say I'm hetero and only date biologically born women, wouldn't I be considered transphobic and be ostracized by the woke community?

by shtps 5y ago

If I say I'm hetero and only date biologically born women, wouldn't I be considered transphobic and be ostracized by the woke community?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

progre 5y ago

I doubt that. Resonable people recognice that there is a diffrence between a personal preference of who to fuck, and telling others who they should prefer to fuck.

drstewart 5y ago
"Reasonable people" seems awfully "no true Scotsman"-y to me
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  But I don't know that it actually is. There's no “everyone will be fine with this” – implied is a “most people are reasonable”, so it isn't the right form of argument to be a No True Scotsman.
- progre 5y ago
  No, it's a simple inital assumption about good faith actors. In my opinion, this is a strategy that often pays off.

orwin 5y ago

No. One of my friend is lesbian and active LGBTQ+ member (pro-bono doctor for the one who needs it in her community now, that's what i mean by active), and she knows i only date biologically born women, her friends knows it, never had any issue with them.

Clampower 5y ago
I’m a homosexual man. I’ve been called out by woke friends because I’ve said that generally gay men are not attracted to vaginas. I’ve been called closed minded and a right wing asshole for saying that I would not date trans men, and that heterosexual intercourse will never be gay. I have to keep these opinions quiet now because of the negative social backlash I’ve gotten. I can’t believe we live in times where we have people in the lgbt community who criticize homosexual men as being “genital fetishists” for being attracted to only men of the same sex.
- ptr2voidStar 5y ago
  The left is eating itself up, and it's an absolute joy to behold - because this was never about equality and justice, it was always, and has always (as ALL relationships between humans) being about POWER. This has always been a POWER GRAB masquerading as "civility".
  - mrow84 5y ago
    Saying that political thinking, of any stripe, is about power is pretty much a tautology. Similarly, equality and justice are about power relations, so there isn’t the contradiction you seem to believe there either. Politics is the process of distributing power, and left wing politics aims to distribute power more widely, whereas right wing politics aims to concentrate it.
    - ptr2voidStar 5y ago
      > Saying that political thinking, of any stripe, is about power is pretty much a tautology. I never stated that (you did). I merely pointed out the fact that humans are largely hypocrites and duplicitous by nature. ALL interactions between humans is underpinned by power. In the past, the power grab was explicit, nowadays said power is sought after behind the veneer of "civility" and "niceness". It is basic human nature that I'm criticising. The left are just as bad as the right - but at least, with the right - you can see them coming, because they are mostly explicit (at least relative to the left). The left are just as power hungry as the right, but are very well versed in this "we are nice, caring people" act - this is why I (a seeker of the truth - and nothing but the truth), am enjoying their dirty inner workings coming to light.

bennysomething 5y ago

Well there's definitely some people who think that, they say as much on their videos. One I watched claimed the only way to get rid of transphobia was for straight people to understand that you don't get to care about what kind of genitals your date has. You ll find out in bed.

simonklitj 5y ago
Interesting! Do I lose the ability to chose based on other things, then? Like, I prefer brunettes, would that be permitted, or should I be hair-color blind and just take what I’m given? I know you’re not an advocate for it, just interesting that some people hold this conviction!
- sascha_sl 5y ago
  This implies that trans people are deceptive. Is is deception if you prefer brunettes, but the person you're about to be intimate with has dyed their hair?
  - simonklitj 5y ago
    Hopefully it doesn’t! Would you like to point out how I imply that trans people are deceptive? Sure, but my preference for being solely with brunettes is not as strong as my preference for being solely with straight people, so the deception is not equal in its merited response. Perhaps this is bigoted, but I’m sincerely interested in your conviction.
    - sascha_sl 5y ago
      Well, trans is not really a hard factor for attraction. Fully cis-passing trans women exist, even in intimate relationships, and I'd wager not all things that go into that even matter to most people. Feel free to exclude based on physical criteria common in trans people, be it from masculine features, to larger frames to a set of genitals you're not attracted to, but "trans people" as category is way to broad. Because they can functionally be cis women. Unless you have a breeding fetish I guess. Insisting on a separate category feels like people are holding on to bioessentialist feeling that trans women must be men, which would make a cis man gay. Pair that with toxic masculinity and you have one of the reasons for violence particularly against trans women. (I have no personal stake at this, like many trans people I mostly date other trans people, less complicated and your partner has less of a hard time relating to you)

corobo 5y ago

Depends why you're saying it. Context matters. If you're saying it to prove a point I mean yeah people see through that

twic 5y ago

Some people would consider that transphobic: https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-tr... Others would say they're not saying that, but that your preference is influenced by transphobic culture: https://www.curvemag.com/blog/transgender/the-often-misunderstood-premise-of-the-cotton-ceiling/ https://www.curvemag.com/blog/transgender/the-often-misunder... I'm sure others would be fine with it.

konogasa 5y ago
I'm trans and I'd be fine with it and I think of the arguments that it's transphobic as misguided at best, malicious at worst. There seems to be a vocal contigent of transwomen who identify as lesbians who try to argue that a lesbian who is not trans and doesn't want to have sex with a transwoman (even one with male genitalia) is transphobic. This sounds to me like a kind of very, very bad pickup line. On the other hand, I'd like to know what the OP, shtps, would think if they dated a transwoman without knowing she was trans and later found out about it. People have committed violent crimes because they didn't know, or at least claimed they didn't know as a defense. So there is something there that needs clearing up. If you're attracted to someone and then later find something about them and decide you're not attracted to them after all, that's not the fault of the person you initially found atttractive. Agreed?
- shtps 5y ago
  I want to start a family in the traditional sense like my parents and grandparents have done before me, so I would be disappointed to find out I was dating a transwoman. Similarly I'd be disappointed to find out if a woman didn't want children or wanted to live a lifestyle incompatible with my own. It isn't going to work out and I'd have to ultimately call it off. It's not about 'who's at fault' really. It will sooner or later come up and it is better sooner than later for both parties. If I'm dating a woman and she doesn't mention that she already has children, which is a big deal for me, then we're both just wasting our times because that's something I can't compromise on. I don't know why this even needs to be stated, but violence is not an option in either of these cases.

sascha_sl 5y ago

Attraction doesn't work like this. You're not attracted to chromosomes, you're attracted to femininity. I could understand if you'd find some to most trans women not attractive, but a categorical exclusion seems transphobic to me. There are trans women where you really can not tell, even if you're in an intimate relationship. At that point it moves from being a genuine preference to bigotry. But I can see what you're actually asking: Is anyone going to yell at you because you're not dating them. The answer is no. Unless you real question was not a question, but more of an implication that something that literally never happens must happen on a grand scale. Damn the woke mob forcing me to fuck trannies!

goodpoint 5y ago

Refusing to date the whole group due to a choice made in principle is obviously transphobic, by definition. Not being attracted to this or that person is perfectly natural. Reminder: a lot of trans people "pass" perfectly. "ostracized by the woke community" in another strawman.

CodeGlitch 5y ago
Perhaps you want to date a women to find a partner you want to eventually have children with?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Jcowell 5y ago
  Yes but even then it’s not “I don’t date trans women” it’s “I don’t taste women who can’t give birth”
- goodpoint 5y ago
  Then you should rule out the large number of women who either do not want or cannot have children. Perhaps there's something else going on?

howinteresting 5y ago

Trans women are "biologically born women". As a trans person I do not believe in a firm sex/gender distinction. The evidence clearly suggests gender identity (unlike race) has a major biological component.

konogasa 5y ago
I'm a trans woman. What evidence is that you are citing?
- howinteresting 5y ago
  https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/is-gender-identity-biologically-hard-wired https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/is-gender-identity-biologi... and https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/the-biological-roots-of-gender-identity https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/the-biological-roots-of-gen... are good overviews. Case studies like David Reimer are pretty definitive, in my opinion.
  - konogasa 5y ago
    The David Reimer case is not really "evidence" of anything. At best it's more like a hint or a suggestion. "Evidence" should mean there is a scientific theory and someone conducted an experiment to prove or disprove it and, hey, look at the evidence, it tells us something about the theory. The Reimer case was a complete destruction of a person's life, but it was not perpetrated as an experiment of any kind. Although if I remember correctly the perpetrator did claim he was testing a theory, the unethical and haphazard, disorganised way in which he went about it completely discredits any pretense to science. So, other, actual evidence, please? A citation in a journal would do. E.g. Yu & Yu 2017 "Gender identity has a biological component" or something of the sort. Something we can accept is "evidence" in a mainstream, standard sense, not in the sense given to "evidence" by the internet, like "I know of something that agrees with my personal beliefs so it's evidence that I'm right".

amanaplanacanal 5y ago

I think I’m woke, but it seems obvious to me that everybody has sexual preferences that go way beyond the gender of their partner. Some prefer tall and dark, some prefer petite blondes. Some people prefer big black and beautiful. How can we make moral judgement about people’s sexual preferences? I guess the alternative would be that you have to be willing to have sex with everybody of your preferred sex? Are there people who actually think this?