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I am really missing something in this whole thing. Everyone is already partnered with gov. Gov have access to all the servers. So that doesn’t explain this outr

I am really missing something in this whole thing. Everyone is already partnered with gov. Gov have access to all the servers. So that doesn’t explain this outrage, Microsoft, google, Apple will all comply with warrants asking access to cloud stored data. The outrage was: Apple were spying ON the device. But then they explained, they were hash matching so they didn’t need to give unfettered access to your cloud data. The device doesn’t notify police, it has protections from false positives and is no MORE access than any company already has. This seems like outrage with no substance behind it. Gmail scans your mail, Facebook your messages (on and off device). Why is Apple suddenly terrible for doing something that seems to honestly improve the situation not make it worse?

avidiax 5y ago
> no MORE access than any company already has Yes, Google and Apple are both capable of writing code to scan your device for anything. Only Apple (to our knowledge) has written this code. It's a distinction with meaning. For the moment, yes, they are only scanning things that will eventually be stored on their servers. It's just another minor policy change to scan things that you are keeping locally. My hope is that they will delay this until they can announce E2EE for iCloud, which would then at least be give and take on privacy, potentially a net win. As it stands, this is a net loss.
simion314 5y ago
Imagine you use some OS, say Ubuntu or Windows and the company behind it canonical/Microsoft creates an application that scans your files for illegal shit and reports you to the government. This application is optional you download and install it if you want it. Who in the right mind would download and install such an application that runs in background , uses your resources and reports you to the police, no advantages for you. So the equation is clear, the user has nothing to gain, a lot to lose if the system triggers and the user also needs to blindly trust(no way to check the hashes or the binaries) that the system will not be abused. If you are a person that strongly thinks Apple should handle CSAM then ask them why they did nothing until now? They collaborate with FBI/NSA on other stuff.
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  > Imagine you use some OS, say Ubuntu or Windows and the company behind it canonical/Microsoft creates an application that scans your files for illegal shit and reports you to the government. You don't have to imagine it. This has literally been happening for the past decade. >The system that scans cloud drives for illegal images was created by Microsoft and Dartmouth College and donated to NCMEC. The organization creates signatures of the worst known images of child pornography, approximately 16,000 files at present. These file signatures are given to service providers who then try to match them to user files in order to prevent further distribution of the images themselves, a Microsoft spokesperson told NBC News. (Microsoft implemented image-matching technology in its own services, such as Bing and SkyDrive.) https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-private-not-according-fine-print-1c8881731 https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-pr... Google has been scanning everything in your account for the past decade as well. >a man [was] arrested on child pornography charges, after Google tipped off authorities about illegal images found in the Houston suspect's Gmail account https://techcrunch.com/2014/08/06/why-the-gmail-scan-that-led-to-a-mans-arrest-for-child-porn-was-not-a-privacy-violation/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/08/06/why-the-gmail-scan-that-le... Apple will only scan photos you post to iCloud Photos, and their system is set up in such a way that they cant see the scan results until a threshold of 30 matches is met, to protect you from being flagged to the government for a few false positives. (They do have a human verify there is a real issue, and that you haven't just somehow posted more than 30 false positives to iCloud) Google and Microsoft's systems have no such protection. Anyone who can issue a subpoena can maliciously use false positive data against you. We've seen the data trove companies like Google retain used to imprison innocent people before. >Innocent man, 23, sues Arizona police for $1.5million after being arrested for murder and jailed for six days when Google's GPS tracker wrongly placed him at the scene of the 2018 crime https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7897319/Police-arrested-innocent-man-murder-using-Google-location-data.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7897319/Police-arre...
  - simion314 5y ago
    >You don't have to imagine it. This has literally been happening for the past decade. You either do not understand or trying to avoid the question Is there a TurnMeToThePolice app for linux or windows ? and who installs it for free ? For server side makes 100% sense , I use Facebook,Gmail, Dropbox for free so I expect they will scan shit for stuff. For sharing files I am also expect that cloud providers will also scan and respond for copyright violation, makes sense , for stuff you post on Facebook I also expect they scan for porn or other stuff that is against their TOS. But it would be retarded to install something to scan my local files and report me to the police if I had nothing t6o gain from it , so you have already the iPhone, you paid for it, if Apple wants you to allow them to install this shit you should think, why? what I have to gain? Do I trust Apple and my government, what about the future government and the future Apple? The equation is that you gain nothing and the future is unclear so it is 100% a FACT that is a net negative for the user. Still nobody found an answer why Apple did not scan iCloud for CSAM? And why are they starting now with this "think different" way of doing it. If you are a think of the children person you should denounce the fact they did nothing so far , if you are a privacy kind of person you should ask why Apple is giving up now on privacy.
noptd 5y ago
To put it bluntly, because whataboutisms do not compose a valid argument for accepting a new client-side system with a high potential of abuse.
- onethought 5y ago
  There is almost 0 potential for abuse… it’s scan workflow ends in a human verifying that it isn’t a false positive. Not whataboutism, the alternative to apples solution is companies openly scan your entire photo library. That’s what’s happening right now. People are upset because Apple suggested: “how about we only scan when we suspect there is something not right?”
matheusmoreira 5y ago
Because it's my device, it belongs to me and should obey me instead of gigantic corporations or governments. I don't care about some government agenda trying to improve whatever situation. I want my computer out of it. They can go "honestly improve the situation" elsewhere, hopefully as far away from me as possible. And we don't need to provide any other justification either. They're the ones who need damn good reasons and warrants before stepping foot in my property.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  Device belongs to you, but software belongs to the Apple. If you want your device to fully belong to you, you need to find a device supporting software which you can control. Otherwise you're at corporation mercy when it comes to privacy and other sensitive topics.
  - feanaro 5y ago
    I agree this is effectively how it is today in some countries, but I don't consider this an acceptable stance. Software cannot be exempted from normal rules of physical ownership of sold goods. You sold me a device, which also means you sold me the software within because the device is useless without it. The software is not separate from the device, it is the device. Of course, that doesn't mean I can do whatever I see fit with the software; I cannot redistribute it under my own terms. But insofar the actions I take with the software strictly pertain to my own usage of my own device, I should be allowed to do it. And it also means you (the company) shouldn't be able to do with the software installed on my device as you see fit.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > Otherwise you're at corporation mercy when it comes to privacy and other sensitive topics. Despite HN’s desire, the vast majority of touch points in our daily lives are NOT open source. I’d rather laws be setup to safeguard my privacy versus relying on “FOSS” as if that’s a panacea.
- summm 5y ago
  Your own device? That ship has sailed long ago, as you decided to buy it and not root/jailbreak it. You never had any power over that device.

avidiax 5y ago

> no MORE access than any company already has Yes, Google and Apple are both capable of writing code to scan your device for anything. Only Apple (to our knowledge) has written this code. It's a distinction with meaning. For the moment, yes, they are only scanning things that will eventually be stored on their servers. It's just another minor policy change to scan things that you are keeping locally. My hope is that they will delay this until they can announce E2EE for iCloud, which would then at least be give and take on privacy, potentially a net win. As it stands, this is a net loss.

simion314 5y ago

Imagine you use some OS, say Ubuntu or Windows and the company behind it canonical/Microsoft creates an application that scans your files for illegal shit and reports you to the government. This application is optional you download and install it if you want it. Who in the right mind would download and install such an application that runs in background , uses your resources and reports you to the police, no advantages for you. So the equation is clear, the user has nothing to gain, a lot to lose if the system triggers and the user also needs to blindly trust(no way to check the hashes or the binaries) that the system will not be abused. If you are a person that strongly thinks Apple should handle CSAM then ask them why they did nothing until now? They collaborate with FBI/NSA on other stuff.

GeekyBear 5y ago
> Imagine you use some OS, say Ubuntu or Windows and the company behind it canonical/Microsoft creates an application that scans your files for illegal shit and reports you to the government. You don't have to imagine it. This has literally been happening for the past decade. >The system that scans cloud drives for illegal images was created by Microsoft and Dartmouth College and donated to NCMEC. The organization creates signatures of the worst known images of child pornography, approximately 16,000 files at present. These file signatures are given to service providers who then try to match them to user files in order to prevent further distribution of the images themselves, a Microsoft spokesperson told NBC News. (Microsoft implemented image-matching technology in its own services, such as Bing and SkyDrive.) https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-private-not-according-fine-print-1c8881731 https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-pr... Google has been scanning everything in your account for the past decade as well. >a man [was] arrested on child pornography charges, after Google tipped off authorities about illegal images found in the Houston suspect's Gmail account https://techcrunch.com/2014/08/06/why-the-gmail-scan-that-led-to-a-mans-arrest-for-child-porn-was-not-a-privacy-violation/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/08/06/why-the-gmail-scan-that-le... Apple will only scan photos you post to iCloud Photos, and their system is set up in such a way that they cant see the scan results until a threshold of 30 matches is met, to protect you from being flagged to the government for a few false positives. (They do have a human verify there is a real issue, and that you haven't just somehow posted more than 30 false positives to iCloud) Google and Microsoft's systems have no such protection. Anyone who can issue a subpoena can maliciously use false positive data against you. We've seen the data trove companies like Google retain used to imprison innocent people before. >Innocent man, 23, sues Arizona police for $1.5million after being arrested for murder and jailed for six days when Google's GPS tracker wrongly placed him at the scene of the 2018 crime https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7897319/Police-arrested-innocent-man-murder-using-Google-location-data.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7897319/Police-arre...
- simion314 5y ago
  >You don't have to imagine it. This has literally been happening for the past decade. You either do not understand or trying to avoid the question Is there a TurnMeToThePolice app for linux or windows ? and who installs it for free ? For server side makes 100% sense , I use Facebook,Gmail, Dropbox for free so I expect they will scan shit for stuff. For sharing files I am also expect that cloud providers will also scan and respond for copyright violation, makes sense , for stuff you post on Facebook I also expect they scan for porn or other stuff that is against their TOS. But it would be retarded to install something to scan my local files and report me to the police if I had nothing t6o gain from it , so you have already the iPhone, you paid for it, if Apple wants you to allow them to install this shit you should think, why? what I have to gain? Do I trust Apple and my government, what about the future government and the future Apple? The equation is that you gain nothing and the future is unclear so it is 100% a FACT that is a net negative for the user. Still nobody found an answer why Apple did not scan iCloud for CSAM? And why are they starting now with this "think different" way of doing it. If you are a think of the children person you should denounce the fact they did nothing so far , if you are a privacy kind of person you should ask why Apple is giving up now on privacy.

noptd 5y ago

To put it bluntly, because whataboutisms do not compose a valid argument for accepting a new client-side system with a high potential of abuse.

onethought 5y ago
There is almost 0 potential for abuse… it’s scan workflow ends in a human verifying that it isn’t a false positive. Not whataboutism, the alternative to apples solution is companies openly scan your entire photo library. That’s what’s happening right now. People are upset because Apple suggested: “how about we only scan when we suspect there is something not right?”

matheusmoreira 5y ago

Because it's my device, it belongs to me and should obey me instead of gigantic corporations or governments. I don't care about some government agenda trying to improve whatever situation. I want my computer out of it. They can go "honestly improve the situation" elsewhere, hopefully as far away from me as possible. And we don't need to provide any other justification either. They're the ones who need damn good reasons and warrants before stepping foot in my property.

vbezhenar 5y ago
Device belongs to you, but software belongs to the Apple. If you want your device to fully belong to you, you need to find a device supporting software which you can control. Otherwise you're at corporation mercy when it comes to privacy and other sensitive topics.
- feanaro 5y ago
  I agree this is effectively how it is today in some countries, but I don't consider this an acceptable stance. Software cannot be exempted from normal rules of physical ownership of sold goods. You sold me a device, which also means you sold me the software within because the device is useless without it. The software is not separate from the device, it is the device. Of course, that doesn't mean I can do whatever I see fit with the software; I cannot redistribute it under my own terms. But insofar the actions I take with the software strictly pertain to my own usage of my own device, I should be allowed to do it. And it also means you (the company) shouldn't be able to do with the software installed on my device as you see fit.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > Otherwise you're at corporation mercy when it comes to privacy and other sensitive topics. Despite HN’s desire, the vast majority of touch points in our daily lives are NOT open source. I’d rather laws be setup to safeguard my privacy versus relying on “FOSS” as if that’s a panacea.
summm 5y ago
Your own device? That ship has sailed long ago, as you decided to buy it and not root/jailbreak it. You never had any power over that device.