5 ms·

The article is written by a professor of biology, a scientist. Per the article, a fungus can somehow remember where it previously found food. That degree of sp

The article is written by a professor of biology, a scientist. Per the article, a fungus can somehow remember where it previously found food. That degree of spatial awareness/memory is surprising. Thus, in the way that biologists use the word "intelligence", fungi are intelligent. They'd be pretty dumb on any intelligence scale, but they have intelligence. Yeah, hippies get a little too excited about the mind of the fungus or whatever when they hear the word "intelligence" applied to fungi. Who cares.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
I think my sibling post is relevant and addresses these points. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408847 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408847
colechristensen 5y ago
>Yeah, hippies get a little too excited about the mind of the fungus or whatever when they hear the word "intelligence" applied to fungi. Who cares. I care about the inflation of terms like intelligence and the selling of science as "woah dude" to get clicks. A professor of biology isn't necessarily an expert in what should be called "intelligence" or immune to writing things worth criticism. People are constantly amazed that things that are alive aren't as inert as a rock, yes life is cool, but you don't need to thing that everything which interacts with the environment has an experience like "thinking". >Thus, in the way that biologists use the word "intelligence", fungi are intelligent In the way that this biologist is using the word, but it is well worth questioning that use of the word. Saying everything in the world is intelligent sort of makes the term not have any meaning. Is my mechanical thermostat intelligent? Really simple systems can have complex behavior when you don't understand how they work, and when you do figure the system out you can be impressed by how something simple can accomplish but simple machines aren't intelligent, intelligence is something different and much more special.
- retrac 5y ago
  Not everything in the world. Rocks are not intelligent. That's simple enough. They don't encode any information as far as I can see, they certainly don't actively process or transform it. Living systems seem to. Even bacteria. Information theory seems too applicable when I look at DNA. All living systems seem intelligent, to varying degrees, as they are storing, duplicating and conditionally applying patterns to various biochemical problems in the task of propagating the rulebook of solutions further, the same task that the intelligence of the brain was evolved for. I worry this is more pseudospiritual woo rather than philosophy, though.
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    And that drills down into my point. "alive" and "intelligent" shouldn't by synonyms. We should reserve the word "intelligent" for a certain considerably higher level of ability and complexity than can be ascribed to most anything living. When you say every living system is intelligent, the word ceases to add any information and you might as well just say "alive" and drop "intelligent".
    - retrac 5y ago
      For practical purposes, I get you. But if it is the same essence at its very core, maybe we shouldn't separate them so vigorously when we think about it philosophically.
      - colechristensen 5y ago
        And this is where much of philosophy ends up, coming to an agreement (or not) as to the boundaries and conditions where a term should be applied.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    How intelligent is your smartphone? It's made of rocks.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    Never underestimate the behavioral complexity of rocks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_stones >Sailing stones (also called sliding rocks, walking rocks, rolling stones, and moving rocks) are part of the geological phenomenon in which rocks move and inscribe long tracks along a smooth valley floor without animal intervention. The movement of the rocks occurs when large sheets of ice a few millimeters thick and floating in an ephemeral winter pond break up on sunny days. Frozen during cold winter nights, these thin, floating ice panels are driven by wind and shove rocks at speeds up to 5 meters per minute. The three types of pet rocks are: ingenius, sentimentalary, and anthropomorphic. I invented and implemented a pie menu remote control touch screen interface on the PocketPC for sending commands to pet rocks (and it also works with many feral rocks): Pet Rock Remote Control: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG0FAKkaisg&ab_channel=DonHopkins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG0FAKkaisg&ab_channel=DonHo... The essential key to successfully training happy and obedient pet rocks is to repeatedly and consistently give them commands they can perform well, like "Sit", "Stay", "Play Dead", "Roll Over", "Gather Moss", and lots of positive reinforcement immediately after they obey what you tell them to do: "Good Rock!"
- nine_k 5y ago
  Where would you draw the border between "merely alive" and "intelligent"? All multicellular living things seem to do some information processing. We would not agree to call a fungus intelligent, but would agree to call a human intelligent. OK, from human we can descend to an ape, a dog, a crow, a sparrow, a crocodile, a goldfish, a flatworm, a jellyfish. Jellyfish don't have a dedicated nervous system and probably can't be called "intelligent". But can you determine where in the sequence there is a cliff, an abrupt enough change that delimits "intelligence"? I have trouble doing that in a meaningful, non-arbitrary way.
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    I think intelligence starts when the internal system controlling behavior develops a model of the outside environment and operates on it to drive decisions. That is, behavior is not through a simple physical mechanism or evolutionarily refined control system, but by means of general purpose model making. Intelligence has degrees that begins with any abstraction and ends with arbitrary conscious theorizing and decision making (and a metric of how effective this ability is).
    - TFYS 5y ago
      > I think intelligence starts when the internal system controlling behavior develops a model of the outside environment and operates on it to drive decisions. But isn't that what one of the studied fungi did? To make a decision to grow into the direction where it found food the last time instead of every direction like it did before, it needs to have some sort of model of its environment in its memory, and needs to be able to make decisions based on that model.
      - pvaldes 5y ago
        > To make a decision to grow into the direction where it found food the last time instead of every direction like it did before chemoreception > They are so smart that they find the shortest paths between nodes arranged as Japanese cities survivor bias
  - 5y ago
- TrispusAttucks 5y ago
  The [1] the Panpsychists might drop sagree on some points there. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism
- sjtindell 5y ago
  The borders between alive and dead, intelligent and not intelligent are arbitrary and very much up for debate.
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    Sure, but if you broaden the word "intelligent" to include the behavior of mycelium you probably need a different word for the quality only shared by vertebrates and cephalopods with more complex brains and internal representations of the world. Then somebody is going to use that word for fungus too and on and on. The key disagreement is the comparison in quality being measured between humans and to a lesser degree many animals and the degree of that quality had by fungi. The article is using a word in such a way that less familiar people make false associations between fungi and animals with brains. Like using the same word for a hammer and an industrial assembly robot. Ok sure, both "tools", but an article in a popular science magazine is trying to bring things close together which really are not, mostly because that kind of idea appeals to a kind of person who doesn't have very much knowledge. It's not harmful to debate the word intelligence, it probably is to go around using the word with a common understanding and broaden its meaning to make an appealing but misleading point.
    - sjtindell 5y ago
      So you are saying that portraying the levels of alive vs. intelligent as too similar can be detrimental and is used as a cheap tactic to appeal to a certain kind of lax thinking. I agree. I also think people can be too quick to write off systems or things they consider unintelligent. When we think it is just a “dumb” fungi or whatever else, it takes us longer to recognize true complexity and intelligence in a different form than we are used to. So I personally lean more into defending looser definitions of intelligence and aliveness because I think there’s a lot more to some of these systems we may not have the perspective for yet. I see the argument for a tighter definition too.
- LocalH 5y ago
  Intelligence is a human-biased term. We basically use it, informally at least, to separate ourselves from the rest of nature "oh, they're not sentient, they're not intelligent".
agumonkey 5y ago
yeah spatial memory and coupling over the needs of the self is pretty primordial in my noob opinion too
DonHopkins 5y ago
Hippies get a little too excited about the mind of the crystal and spirits inhabiting rocks and communicating through etherial protocols too, yet here we are in 2021, programming and communicating with silicon CPUs and wireless internet smartphones ensconced in shiny layers of Gorilla Glass that we obsessively carry around with us everywhere and continuously gaze into and hold up at each other and rub and tap on and talk and listen to.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

I think my sibling post is relevant and addresses these points. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408847 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28408847

colechristensen 5y ago

>Yeah, hippies get a little too excited about the mind of the fungus or whatever when they hear the word "intelligence" applied to fungi. Who cares. I care about the inflation of terms like intelligence and the selling of science as "woah dude" to get clicks. A professor of biology isn't necessarily an expert in what should be called "intelligence" or immune to writing things worth criticism. People are constantly amazed that things that are alive aren't as inert as a rock, yes life is cool, but you don't need to thing that everything which interacts with the environment has an experience like "thinking". >Thus, in the way that biologists use the word "intelligence", fungi are intelligent In the way that this biologist is using the word, but it is well worth questioning that use of the word. Saying everything in the world is intelligent sort of makes the term not have any meaning. Is my mechanical thermostat intelligent? Really simple systems can have complex behavior when you don't understand how they work, and when you do figure the system out you can be impressed by how something simple can accomplish but simple machines aren't intelligent, intelligence is something different and much more special.

retrac 5y ago
Not everything in the world. Rocks are not intelligent. That's simple enough. They don't encode any information as far as I can see, they certainly don't actively process or transform it. Living systems seem to. Even bacteria. Information theory seems too applicable when I look at DNA. All living systems seem intelligent, to varying degrees, as they are storing, duplicating and conditionally applying patterns to various biochemical problems in the task of propagating the rulebook of solutions further, the same task that the intelligence of the brain was evolved for. I worry this is more pseudospiritual woo rather than philosophy, though.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  And that drills down into my point. "alive" and "intelligent" shouldn't by synonyms. We should reserve the word "intelligent" for a certain considerably higher level of ability and complexity than can be ascribed to most anything living. When you say every living system is intelligent, the word ceases to add any information and you might as well just say "alive" and drop "intelligent".
  - retrac 5y ago
    For practical purposes, I get you. But if it is the same essence at its very core, maybe we shouldn't separate them so vigorously when we think about it philosophically.
    - colechristensen 5y ago
      And this is where much of philosophy ends up, coming to an agreement (or not) as to the boundaries and conditions where a term should be applied.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  How intelligent is your smartphone? It's made of rocks.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  Never underestimate the behavioral complexity of rocks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_stones >Sailing stones (also called sliding rocks, walking rocks, rolling stones, and moving rocks) are part of the geological phenomenon in which rocks move and inscribe long tracks along a smooth valley floor without animal intervention. The movement of the rocks occurs when large sheets of ice a few millimeters thick and floating in an ephemeral winter pond break up on sunny days. Frozen during cold winter nights, these thin, floating ice panels are driven by wind and shove rocks at speeds up to 5 meters per minute. The three types of pet rocks are: ingenius, sentimentalary, and anthropomorphic. I invented and implemented a pie menu remote control touch screen interface on the PocketPC for sending commands to pet rocks (and it also works with many feral rocks): Pet Rock Remote Control: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG0FAKkaisg&ab_channel=DonHopkins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG0FAKkaisg&ab_channel=DonHo... The essential key to successfully training happy and obedient pet rocks is to repeatedly and consistently give them commands they can perform well, like "Sit", "Stay", "Play Dead", "Roll Over", "Gather Moss", and lots of positive reinforcement immediately after they obey what you tell them to do: "Good Rock!"
nine_k 5y ago
Where would you draw the border between "merely alive" and "intelligent"? All multicellular living things seem to do some information processing. We would not agree to call a fungus intelligent, but would agree to call a human intelligent. OK, from human we can descend to an ape, a dog, a crow, a sparrow, a crocodile, a goldfish, a flatworm, a jellyfish. Jellyfish don't have a dedicated nervous system and probably can't be called "intelligent". But can you determine where in the sequence there is a cliff, an abrupt enough change that delimits "intelligence"? I have trouble doing that in a meaningful, non-arbitrary way.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  I think intelligence starts when the internal system controlling behavior develops a model of the outside environment and operates on it to drive decisions. That is, behavior is not through a simple physical mechanism or evolutionarily refined control system, but by means of general purpose model making. Intelligence has degrees that begins with any abstraction and ends with arbitrary conscious theorizing and decision making (and a metric of how effective this ability is).
  - TFYS 5y ago
    > I think intelligence starts when the internal system controlling behavior develops a model of the outside environment and operates on it to drive decisions. But isn't that what one of the studied fungi did? To make a decision to grow into the direction where it found food the last time instead of every direction like it did before, it needs to have some sort of model of its environment in its memory, and needs to be able to make decisions based on that model.
    - pvaldes 5y ago
      > To make a decision to grow into the direction where it found food the last time instead of every direction like it did before chemoreception > They are so smart that they find the shortest paths between nodes arranged as Japanese cities survivor bias
- 5y ago
TrispusAttucks 5y ago
The [1] the Panpsychists might drop sagree on some points there. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism
sjtindell 5y ago
The borders between alive and dead, intelligent and not intelligent are arbitrary and very much up for debate.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Sure, but if you broaden the word "intelligent" to include the behavior of mycelium you probably need a different word for the quality only shared by vertebrates and cephalopods with more complex brains and internal representations of the world. Then somebody is going to use that word for fungus too and on and on. The key disagreement is the comparison in quality being measured between humans and to a lesser degree many animals and the degree of that quality had by fungi. The article is using a word in such a way that less familiar people make false associations between fungi and animals with brains. Like using the same word for a hammer and an industrial assembly robot. Ok sure, both "tools", but an article in a popular science magazine is trying to bring things close together which really are not, mostly because that kind of idea appeals to a kind of person who doesn't have very much knowledge. It's not harmful to debate the word intelligence, it probably is to go around using the word with a common understanding and broaden its meaning to make an appealing but misleading point.
  - sjtindell 5y ago
    So you are saying that portraying the levels of alive vs. intelligent as too similar can be detrimental and is used as a cheap tactic to appeal to a certain kind of lax thinking. I agree. I also think people can be too quick to write off systems or things they consider unintelligent. When we think it is just a “dumb” fungi or whatever else, it takes us longer to recognize true complexity and intelligence in a different form than we are used to. So I personally lean more into defending looser definitions of intelligence and aliveness because I think there’s a lot more to some of these systems we may not have the perspective for yet. I see the argument for a tighter definition too.
LocalH 5y ago
Intelligence is a human-biased term. We basically use it, informally at least, to separate ourselves from the rest of nature "oh, they're not sentient, they're not intelligent".

agumonkey 5y ago

yeah spatial memory and coupling over the needs of the self is pretty primordial in my noob opinion too

DonHopkins 5y ago

Hippies get a little too excited about the mind of the crystal and spirits inhabiting rocks and communicating through etherial protocols too, yet here we are in 2021, programming and communicating with silicon CPUs and wireless internet smartphones ensconced in shiny layers of Gorilla Glass that we obsessively carry around with us everywhere and continuously gaze into and hold up at each other and rub and tap on and talk and listen to.