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I am sorry but as someone who has been on both sides of this, I think this is all wrong. And I thank god both my app developers and operations people aren't ass
by jasonlotito 5y ago
I am sorry but as someone who has been on both sides of this, I think this is all wrong. And I thank god both my app developers and operations people aren't assholes like you.
Hey, that's a pretty shitty way to start off a comment, don't you think? With a personal attack?
1. Yes. But it's not operations problem if you are whining that your PS5 game isn't running on the XBox. There is personal responsibility in this, too, and it's not operations job to hold your hand and explain how to do your job. If you aren't reaching out to operations to make requests, they aren't going to know what to do. Your entire comment shows that you think they are subservient to you, rather than you actually being an honest user. Tell them what you want, and work with them to get it.
2. QA teams do not slow down time to better quality releases. They do slow down time to half-baked or buggy releases. Regardless, the number of app developers to operations people is generally a very bad imbalance. I promise you, the good ones are working with the people that reach out to them.
3. Maybe if you invited the operations people earlier, they'd have some ownership in the product. But usually they release it without operations even knowing, and suddenly there is something in production that is half-working. They had no hand in it. They literally did not work on the project, so they can't know.
4. You can't abstract away things if you don't know how they work or account for them. Again, inviting operations people to earlier discussion is incredibly easy. You know what projects you are working on, they tend to not because there are far fewer of them than there are application developers. So, it's on you to reach out to them to get input. Yes, they have to make themselves available, but you have to invite. And guess what? When you do that, you get a wealth of information and makes the product better.
Your comment feels like someone who is used to expecting perfection from others while accepting their own mediocrity.
Wow... ending a comment with an insult is rather shitty, too. Why did you decide to go the route of writing a comment that starts of shitty and ends up that way?
Personally, I did it to hold up a mirror to you.
- cf499 5y ago"Maybe if the infrastructure people were involved in development discussion earlier, they'd be able to raise their hands and say: wait a minute, you're going to blow up our logs." "Maybe if you invited the operations people earlier, they'd have some ownership in the product." Awww... You like each other but none of you dare to make the first move :D
- happymellon 5y agoOps/Infra teams don't usually start software projects and not aware that there is a project for them to offer their help with. My experience has been that they can be very accomodating and supportive if you do talk to tham.
- Aeolun 5y agoYeah, all those devs are just sitting there at their desks clacking away on their novels. There is always a project for them to offer help with, since the business will not suffer devs to be idle.
- loopz 5y agoHelp offered, but still radio silence. Anyways, Ops have their own responsibilities and none of the core ones are centered on devs.
- jasonlotito 5y agoSo instead of devs inviting ops people to the meeting they want ops people at, you are saying ops people should go up to devs while they are working and offer to help, even when they aren't needed? No, that's not smart.
- ozim 5y agoWhole thread reads like bunch of guys shouting at each other "but but ... I know better!". IMO this is main topic of the thread and of the article. There are groups of people who instead of spending time to figure out how to work together and understand what other side has to say, they just throw shit over the fence. Maybe some could start by reading points at least couple of times and try to understand instead of trying to write personal experiences as fast as they can in reply to other comment that hurts their ego.
- loopz 5y agoThe gap is a leadership problem, someone is accountable for all the "shipping". It's a made by divide and conquer strategies (more "abstraction" at higher level). But keep blaming the war on peons.
- d--b 5y agoCause the whole article reads like "developers are whiny assholes who don't know shit about computers". And yes, it starts with an attack and ends with an attack too. 1. It's not operations problem for sure, but I certainly don't bash people for not knowing things I am the expert of. 2. Fine 3. The OP's saying he doesn't want to know! 4. Well, writing applications is sitting atop a stack of technologies more and more abstract. A developer not knowing what happens in an IP packet is the same as an infrastructure guy not knowing what happens in an NP junction.
- sgarland 5y ago> A developer not knowing what happens in an IP packet I don't care if devs understand IP packets, TCP congestion control algorithms, or anything similarly low-level. If they do, that's awesome, but it's not expected. I do expect them to have a basic understanding of expected latencies for intra-DC vs. internet, why running Flask in production isn't a good idea, and if they're really sharp, an inkling of how Kubernetes networking works.
- arwineap 5y agoI think I understand your sentiment, but what's wrong with flask??
- kazen44 5y agoi assume the poster means running flask in production without something like nginx in front to serve as the webserver. the flask build in webserver is not production grade software in my opinion.
- Cyphus 5y agoIt is also the opinion of the people who wrote the built-in webserver. If you try to run it in production mode, it'll emits this warning on startup: > WARNING: This is a development server. Do not use it in a production deployment. > Use a production WSGI server instead. I don't expect junior devs to have a sense for what is production-grade and what is not, but if they try to ship software that explicitly warns against being used in production, you've got a real liability on your hands.
- izacus 5y ago> And I thank god both my app developers and operations people aren't assholes like you. Uhh... can we chill with the personal insults a bit?