5 ms·

> Remember - long term, literally everyone is going to get covid Should we stop bullying others to get vaccinated then?

acdha 5y ago
It’s not bullying to expect people to reduce their negative impacts on everyone else anymore than it’s bullying to have you wash hands before preparing food or use the toilet rather than unloading wherever you are. Vaccination is a cheap, safe, and effective way to let humans exist safely in close proximity.
- tejohnso 5y ago
  If everyone is getting covid, including person A, how does person B being vaccinated reduce negative impact on person A?
  - acdha 5y ago
    People who are vaccinated spread less, reducing the total viral load. This is a big deal for people who cannot be vaccinated or who are immune compromised since the odds of exposure and total load are what determine whether they can safely function in society. Similarly, people who are vaccinated are far, far less likely to require medical care. That reduces the load on the medical system — think about all of the complications we're seeing now because people with non-COVID problems are unable to get attention promptly — and a significant percentage of the money for treating more serious COVID cases will be paid by people other than the patients through some combination of taxes, insurance, and overhead costs (e.g. American ERs aren't allowed to refuse care since Reagan socialized them which means those expenses are added to everyone else's bill).
    - nradov 5y ago
      The Delta variant is so contagious that everyone will eventually be exposed regardless of what we do. There will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect people who cannot be vaccinated or who are immune compromised. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu... Vaccinated people who get infected are probably contagious for a shorter period. However that only marginally reduces the risk of contagion for any individual interaction. Over an extended period of time everyone will be exposed. Think of it like a soccer goalie defending against an endless series of penalty kicks. He might block the first few but eventually a ball will get through.
      - acdha 5y ago
        Yes: if you notice I used the word less, that’s why. Anything which reduces load or time cuts into the R factor — we still need masks to get the community levels under control but it seems likely that vaccination will let us hit the point where immune compromised people, those with allergic reactions, etc. can live normally during non-pandemic conditions.
  - robotresearcher 5y ago
    Several ways, the most simple being that if A needs a life support machine, vaccinated B is much less likely to be using it already.
    - tejohnso 5y ago
      Okay so in this case we aren't talking about negative impact being direct contamination, but rather that there is a hospital resource management problem that exists, and people should be vaccinated to help alleviate that resource management problem. That's fine and understandable, but it suggests different communication. If the problem is resource management / availability then instead of talking about how many people per capita are infected and rates of infection, talk about the resource usage, and rate of availability. I think I did see one interview with a hospital manager nearly in tears about potentially having to make lethal resource based decisions, but it's far from a daily talking point like the simple case rate is.
- tejohnso 5y ago
  Hand washing is not widely known to have harmful side effects that sometimes even require hospitalization, and sometimes even cause death. Same for unloading in designated places.
  - acdha 5y ago
    You have to look at the odds: the risky vaccine side-effects are massively less common than those of COVID, which in case you haven’t noticed is raging and causing lots of economic disruption to boot. The trade-off is obvious.
    - tejohnso 5y ago
      Okay so you're changing your argument now. Instead of a simple comparison to hand washing, you're saying people should "look at the odds" and somehow make a judgement call. Well, that's a much different request, and is open to a lot of variation, uncertainty, personal bias, etc. It really isn't as simple as "it's just like washing your hands".
      - acdha 5y ago
        No, it's the same comparison: handwashing is mildly inconvenient (consider, for example, the arguments from doctors who opposed it historically) but a population which does it regularly has a lower chance of various unpleasant outcomes. Vaccination is a different technique but similar: mild inconvenience, lower chance of significantly worse outcomes. The uncertainty and personal bias is what you're trying to inject into a very clear cut decision when you conflate the extremely rare possible side-effects from vaccination with the far more common effects of contracting COVID. If you look at a large population, yes, there are a few people who will have a significant negative reaction to a vaccine but for each of them there are many thousands of people who will have worse outcomes from the actual disease.

It’s not bullying to expect people to reduce their negative impacts on everyone else anymore than it’s bullying to have you wash hands before preparing food or use the toilet rather than unloading wherever you are. Vaccination is a cheap, safe, and effective way to let humans exist safely in close proximity.

tejohnso 5y ago
If everyone is getting covid, including person A, how does person B being vaccinated reduce negative impact on person A?
- acdha 5y ago
  People who are vaccinated spread less, reducing the total viral load. This is a big deal for people who cannot be vaccinated or who are immune compromised since the odds of exposure and total load are what determine whether they can safely function in society. Similarly, people who are vaccinated are far, far less likely to require medical care. That reduces the load on the medical system — think about all of the complications we're seeing now because people with non-COVID problems are unable to get attention promptly — and a significant percentage of the money for treating more serious COVID cases will be paid by people other than the patients through some combination of taxes, insurance, and overhead costs (e.g. American ERs aren't allowed to refuse care since Reagan socialized them which means those expenses are added to everyone else's bill).
  - nradov 5y ago
    The Delta variant is so contagious that everyone will eventually be exposed regardless of what we do. There will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect people who cannot be vaccinated or who are immune compromised. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu... Vaccinated people who get infected are probably contagious for a shorter period. However that only marginally reduces the risk of contagion for any individual interaction. Over an extended period of time everyone will be exposed. Think of it like a soccer goalie defending against an endless series of penalty kicks. He might block the first few but eventually a ball will get through.
    - acdha 5y ago
      Yes: if you notice I used the word less, that’s why. Anything which reduces load or time cuts into the R factor — we still need masks to get the community levels under control but it seems likely that vaccination will let us hit the point where immune compromised people, those with allergic reactions, etc. can live normally during non-pandemic conditions.
- robotresearcher 5y ago
  Several ways, the most simple being that if A needs a life support machine, vaccinated B is much less likely to be using it already.
  - tejohnso 5y ago
    Okay so in this case we aren't talking about negative impact being direct contamination, but rather that there is a hospital resource management problem that exists, and people should be vaccinated to help alleviate that resource management problem. That's fine and understandable, but it suggests different communication. If the problem is resource management / availability then instead of talking about how many people per capita are infected and rates of infection, talk about the resource usage, and rate of availability. I think I did see one interview with a hospital manager nearly in tears about potentially having to make lethal resource based decisions, but it's far from a daily talking point like the simple case rate is.
tejohnso 5y ago
Hand washing is not widely known to have harmful side effects that sometimes even require hospitalization, and sometimes even cause death. Same for unloading in designated places.
- acdha 5y ago
  You have to look at the odds: the risky vaccine side-effects are massively less common than those of COVID, which in case you haven’t noticed is raging and causing lots of economic disruption to boot. The trade-off is obvious.
  - tejohnso 5y ago
    Okay so you're changing your argument now. Instead of a simple comparison to hand washing, you're saying people should "look at the odds" and somehow make a judgement call. Well, that's a much different request, and is open to a lot of variation, uncertainty, personal bias, etc. It really isn't as simple as "it's just like washing your hands".
    - acdha 5y ago
      No, it's the same comparison: handwashing is mildly inconvenient (consider, for example, the arguments from doctors who opposed it historically) but a population which does it regularly has a lower chance of various unpleasant outcomes. Vaccination is a different technique but similar: mild inconvenience, lower chance of significantly worse outcomes. The uncertainty and personal bias is what you're trying to inject into a very clear cut decision when you conflate the extremely rare possible side-effects from vaccination with the far more common effects of contracting COVID. If you look at a large population, yes, there are a few people who will have a significant negative reaction to a vaccine but for each of them there are many thousands of people who will have worse outcomes from the actual disease.