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It’s so weird to have seen the last restrictions lifted this past weekend while the rest of the world is still stuck in a pandemic. Come on people, get vaccina

by moksly 5y ago

It’s so weird to have seen the last restrictions lifted this past weekend while the rest of the world is still stuck in a pandemic. Come on people, get vaccinated and wear a damn mask! If we could do it, so can you! We still have anti-mask groups demonstrating by the way. Though that mandate was lifted a few months back. Really interesting how Facebook has brought together the stupid people in their common cause… but maybe, just maybe there really is a problem with misinformation on the platform when the crazies are still forming up to protest something that isn’t there. :o

Majestic121 5y ago
You seem to be coming from a very 'us vs them' place, and misunderstanding why people do or do not want a vaccine. From my circles, the vaccine/mask defiance is mostly about what is perceived (wrongly in my opinion, but still) as an overreach from the state, and as a risky bet that they might not want to take. While I agree with you that this thinking is most probably coming from disinformation/propaganda, by countering it with condescension ('If we could do it, so can you!', 'brought together the stupid people') is the most definite way to have those people become defensive and stick to their opinion. Maybe you don't care about changing people mind and just want to score internet points from people already convinced, but be aware that it is what you're doing.
- 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
  Fair enough. What do you suggest "we" (anti-anti-maskers and anti-anti-vaxers) say to these people in order to try and sway them to more factual information and keep them along with the rest of our communities safe? Most if not all of what I have said to such people is often met with responses like "No", "fake news", "watch this video by Dr. So-and-so". Or them flat out talking down to me thinking I'm a dumb person on the fence about it when in reality I'm far from on the fence about it.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    Nothing you can say. We feel how we feel. Covid is endemic it continues to mutate and evolve, we are all going to get it. Your health is and always has been your best defense. And smiling in public is not a biohazard.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      The big problem with a pandemic like COVID-19 is when it's presented in terms of personal risk. The reality remains that any given individual's chance of becoming seriously ill, let alone dying, from COVID-19 is extremely small. The problem is not this risk, but instead the risk that large numbers of people will be sick enough to require health care, particularly hospitalization and even more particularly ICU facilities, all within a very short period of time, causing overload of health care systems and many more unnecessary deaths from things other than COVID-19 due to the impairment of the health care system. But instead, huge chunks of the media/culture discuss COVID-19 in terms of personal risk. The personal responsibility that we have to each other in a pandemic like this is not a question of "I should do X because I might die of it", but rather "I should do X to reduce the risk that others will die of it and other illness". And no, "your health is and always has been your best defense" is a ludicrous position. It's abundantly clear that none of our socially-understood markers for "good health" are guarantoors of "covid will not kill you".
  - shmel 5y ago
    I think the main problem with hesitancy is enormous mistrust to the government and to the state. The very same problem that led to Trump's victory. For decades people in power fuck the working class over, poor people repeatedly watch the government going against their interest and getting in bed with rich corporations all while lying through their teeth how they totally care about everyone. Now the government comes back and says: "please take this vaccine, it is really for your own sake, trust us, this time for real we truly care about you". What do you expect them to do? People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! This is not about the virus, as they say. This is not about the vaccine either. Many people across the world feel angry, ignored for years and powerless to change the status quo. They are miserable and see absolute contempt from the politicians. The same ones who now call for them to end the pandemic ASAP and go back to how things were before. The whole antivax fake news stuff taps directly into people's mistrust. When you live for years with the feeling "omg, these people are definitely lying to me", it takes just a few videos to confirm this: "oh yeah, they are _definitely_ lying to me and I am not alone to realize this". Go figure this out first.
    - watwut 5y ago
      But, Trump voters are not primary poor. If it is mistrust toward the state, how come it comes from the same groups that treat calls for police accountability as attack on police, support both military and police in pretty much any situation? That pushes for having cops as armed as possible? The same groups that right now managed to make abortion fully impossible in Texas? Whose primary approach to social issues is to make punishments higher? If it is against corporations, why is it coming from the same party that is actively and systematically working to make corporations stronger? > People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! Have you considered that the whole "own the libs" and "trigger the libs" is conscious attempt to make your opponents angry? And that those opponents do react to it too? That is the whole point, antagonize people you are owning or triggering. And that is somehow fault of people who you go out of way to antagonize?
    - deleted 5y ago
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    Why do you feel the need to say anything at all? You feel How you feel, they feel how they feel, telling them “you need to feel how I feel” isn’t going to do much except make people angry. I got my 2 shots, I wear a mask when required. I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      > I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try. This is not a recipe for solid public health policy. Maybe it's fine as an individual life choice, but COVID-19 is a public health condition, not a private one, and requires public health responses, not private ones.
      - dgfitz 5y ago
        Hard disagree. The people that are going to get vaccinated either have or will at some point. The people who aren’t, won’t unless somehow forced. Policy won’t do anything except make people even more angry. Fuck policy. It really drives me nuts when people take the attitude “I know what’s best for you, you’re too stupid to be able to make your own decisions. I’m really smart and I’ll decide for you.”
        PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        No, absolutely no. None of this is about "what's best for you". As I said above, one of the biggest category errors with COVID-19 is to treat it as a personal risk issue. The personal risk is almost inconsequential, the real problem is with public health, and the decisions there have very little to do with "what's best for you" as an individual, and everything to do with "what's best for our health systems".
        dgfitz 5y ago
        What I’m saying is, policy won’t do bupkis. People are going to do what they want. This ideological idea that “policy will fix covid” is willful ignorance at this point.
- watwut 5y ago
  I would be more open to this point of view, if the "don't be condescending or insulting" expectation applied to both sides equally. I have yet to see it deployed toward those who try to emasculate guys who were masks, insist on framing choice to do as cowardly fear and so on. Btw, "nanny state" expression is exactly that. Or against those who exaggerate restrictions that exist in order to paint opposite side as super unreasonable. Sometimes in the future, if that applied to people who brag about triggering liberal snowflakes and such. As of now, to the extend there are sides, the "be nice dont offend" expectation is put on exactly one side, usually in order to make them shut up.
- Layke1123 5y ago
  No, you are normalizing amd validating behavior that is not tolerable for a rational society. These people have no basis for not wanting to take the vaccine that could very well save their lives, but more importantly, not affect my rights to live in a healthy society. Their rights ended when they demonstrated a complete lack of awareness of how not to spread a disease to others.
- hanniabu 5y ago
  > From my circles, the vaccine/mask defiance is mostly about what is perceived (wrongly in my opinion, but still) as an overreach from the state, and as a risky bet that they might not want to take. Then why is it typically those same people that want to remove women's ability to have an abortion?
  - CapricornNoble 5y ago
    Who are "those same people"? I'm going to assume you mean conservative white people in flyover states? Do you understand that black and hispanic vaccination rates lag other ethnicities? [1][2] A couple of my group chats that are exclusively other black male expats, with origins ranging from Canada to the US to Kenya, are full of shared meme images and videos about the risks/dangers of COVID vaccination. Vehement opposition includes our one ER nurse-turned-millionaire-day-trader, and an aerospace engineer in the UK....We're definitely not a demographic screaming against abortion....hell, abortion saves a bunch of us from child support payments. (I'm only being slightly facetious). Long story short, I would suggest broadening your information exposure if you think only "those people" are hesitant/opposed to rushed COVID-19 vaccines being rammed down our throats by the same governments who approved of prescription opioids and the Tuskegee Experiment. [1]https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/ https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-... [2]https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/07/vaccine-equity-black-americans-biden-491973 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/07/vaccine-equity-blac...
    - silicon2401 5y ago
      Many people only care about minorities who are convenient to the point being made, while ignoring the other minorities. I've spoken to people who excuse this as saying that we have to be practical and consider the majority of the minority group opinions (wasn't the point to help minorities?). For example, you never see liberals who virtue signal about giving minorities a platform trying to give a platform to trans people and Hispanics who supported Trump, conservative and anti-immigration or anti-abortion minorities, Hispanics offended by the word "latinx", blacks who disagree with renaming "master" branches in git, and your example of black and hispanic people who don't vaccinate.
- moksly 5y ago
  It was extremely easy to change peoples minds though. You simply have to make them pay to get tested. Then suddenly the vaccine was preferable. I’m not American, I don’t share your sentiments about letting people be people. A society is you and me and everyone else in it, working together. If you chose to work against the wider us for no good reason, then you’re no longer part of our society. Being anti-science is not a good enough reason for anyone to defend you around here.
  - tejohnso 5y ago
    > extremely easy to change peoples minds though. If a serious enough pandemic arises, you won't have to change minds. Real fear of the pandemic will be enough. I don't know anybody, who knows anybody who died or was even hospitalized due to covid. All the fear and alarm has to be manufactured.
    - bumby 5y ago
      >I don't know anybody...All the fear" You seem to be extrapolating an n=1 scenario to the population as a whole ("I" --> "All"). Are you then implying anyone who does know somebody sick or hospitalized has warranted fear?
      - tejohnso 5y ago
        > Are you then implying anyone who does know somebody sick or hospitalized has warranted fear? I'm not talking about whether it is warranted or not, but if you know somebody sick or hospitalized, the fear you experience from that is likely to be very impactful, and you will be more inclined to get a vaccine based on that.
        bumby 5y ago
        I agree. But I also acknowledge that type of heuristic probably isn't optimal.
    - bserge 5y ago
- blululu 5y ago
  I’ve heard this line of reasoning a lot but I’ve never seen anyone back it up with much of evidence beyond the usual platitudes of liberal parenting. (Note that I also find modern American child rearing techniques to be a set of failures where children act as little dictators and their gentle, caring parents desperately try to convince their kids to behave). I can’t help but see the same patterns at work here. Personally I’ll stick with a firm insistence that Covid presents serious risks, vaccines are safe and effective, and the inability to comprehend a scientific paper or even copy off the homework of the smart kids is a shameful embarrassment. If that doesn’t vibe with someone’s AYSO participation trophy mindset, though luck, we have a global pandemic to deal with so man up and take one for the team. If you think babying people with gentle appeals is working, take a cold look at the results of polite messaging campaigns.
  - Majestic121 5y ago
    My point of view is closer to yours than you might think : I'm definitely pro-vaccination, and I do believe at least some categories of population should have mandatory vaccine (teachers, medical, etc...). My point was mainly about the self-congratulatory tone of the message above, whose main effect is to : - create tension with people that disagree - gain approval from people that already agree And in the end make the subject more tense than it has to be. No one bats an eye for other mandatory vaccine, this one creates tension because of propaganda campaigns and some valid concerns (like mrna vaccine being pretty new), but the answer to those tensions is not exacerbating an "us vs them" mentality
    - odessacubbage 5y ago
      at some point we all learned instinctively that the best way to farm internet points is not to extend olive branches but to set them on fire.
    - blululu 5y ago
      I noticed in your previous point that you are not opposed to the widespread use of vaccines and that you are in favor of taking action to stop the danger posed by covid. The question I am asking is about tactics for getting everyone working together to put an end to this. I keep hearing people suggest that we can’t be condescending because we shouldn’t offend anyone or make anybody feel bad and I am not seeing it do much good. Shame is a powerful social mechanism and I don’t see why we shouldn’t use it. What are you actually proposing? A clear statement of facts is a good start, but what do you recommend after that?
- rsynnott 5y ago
  This idea that idiots are extremely sensitive and will deepen their belief in nonsense _out of spite_ if confronted seems to have become very widespread, but is there any reason to think it's true? If anything, their nonsense is being taken too seriously; a lot of media both-sides it to some extent in a way that it wouldn't with, say, flat-earthers. And, while there are a lot of confounding factors, of course, there seem to be fewer people buying all the horse drugs in countries where the media was dismissive of them, vs in countries where parts of the media both-side-ed it.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    We've learnt from past medical adventures that things in this domain are frequently not as straightforward as many would like them to be, or as they are portrayed to be. The poster child for this for my generation (I'm 57) would be thalidomide, but there are lots of other less catastrophic examples of "proven" medical technology and treatments that turned out to be not quite as safe and side-effect-free as was initially claimed. For some communities too, there are clear cut cases of the medical establishment and/or the state deliberately and knowingly experimenting on people with unstated/hidden agendas. This makes media handling of some of these claims in comparison to flat-earthers a bit more understandable, whether or not time eventually shows it to be justified or not.
graeme 5y ago
If you’re in a northern country with a pronounced summer and a winter flu season, I’d wait a bit before celebrating. Europe and Canada celebrated victory in summer 2020 compared to the US. Then it all soured. Every stats in those countries now celebrating is worse than it was early sept 2020. Deaths, hospitalizations, ICU….all worse. It’s not just cases. Respiratory viruses get worse in winter. The hope is this one won’t, or that herd immunity is finally reached, despite a higher case load than last year.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  > Every stats in those countries now celebrating is worse than it was early sept 2020. Well, no, we have 70-85 percent fully vaccinated population in Europe, and a lot of the remaining 25 percent most likely has antibodies. This isn't the same as last year. Experts here in Belgium argue that we should be lifting restrictions ASAP so that the infections are flattened out and don't all happen during winter.
  - graeme 5y ago
    Belgium, compared to sept 2nd 2020: Cases: 5x Deaths: 2x Hospitalizations: 2.5x ICU: 2.5x Tiny compared to winter? Yes. But this is a seasonal respiratory virus and this season is worse than last year same time. Now, the theory is you can go back to normal, massively increase viral doses in the air, and not see a rise through winter. Because of immunity. But, breakthroughs seem to happen more easily at high viral doses. The other thing is, antibodies wane. Israel had to do boosters, they found greater susceptibility the further people got from their vax date. Boosters have reversed severe disease trends for now, and is optimistic. But they also have restrictions. I don’t know which way the future goes. My point is just that it is terribly premature to declare victory over a respiratory virus in summer. Europe made exactly the same mistake last year. You won’t know till winter. The other thing people forget is that efficacy is a relative measure, but hospitalizations are absolute. Ok, so, 95% efficacy in reducing hospitalizations compared to unvaccinated. Great! I got the vaccines myself, but that is a great result. So, on absolute terms, you have 20x less risk of hospitalization from the wild type variant at case levels at a given point. But….Delta is associated with a 2x increase in hosp risk compared to wild type. Oops ok so we have only a 10x absolute reduction in hospitalization risk. And cases are 5x higher than this time last year. Oops, ok, compared to sept 2nd 2020 a vaccinated Belgian has only a 2x absolute reduced risk of hospitalization compared to same time last year. (An unvaccinated Belgian with no prior infection has a 10x higher risk, efficacy vs severe disease still 95%) If cases go high enough you still see severe disease, even with vaccines. Maybe impossible for cases to hit 100,000 a day in Belgium, 5x winter peak. But Israel already 60% higher than winter peak, in summer, with boosters, and restrictions. So what happens without restrictions, in winter? (I’m assuming Belgium will get boosters)
tellersid 5y ago
I am fully vaccinated and will get a booster as soon as offered but even I am so sick of people preaching about this. You do your part individually and that is the best you can do. All you are doing when you post something like this is causing a visceral reaction in the people that need to get vaccinated of "fuck you internet guy, I am not listening to you, I am not getting vaccinate!" The people I know that are not vaccinated are this exactly. They are so pig headed that if you preach at them they will dig in their heals and do the opposite almost automatically. We need people to just shut up about this already and dial everything back so it is not some admission of defeat for pig headed people who haven't got the vaccine to actually do so.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- moksly 5y ago
  If you want to be part of society you have to wear pants and you have to get vaccinated. If you can’t do those things then you can go somewhere else. Or at least pay for your own covid test that clears you for a visit into society for 24 hours. We can’t be burdened by the village idiot forever.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bingohbangoh 5y ago
    wearing pants != getting vaccinated, not in the slightest. Stop comparing the two. We've been wearing pants for several centuries now, this vaccine is new. The mRNA vaccines are not the same as past vaccines in either their immediate effect (I was zonked out for three days) or in their long-term effects (which, despite how safe they seem so far are simply not tested long term). I say this as somebody who is fully vaccinated (Johnson & Johnson).
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      "wearing pants" is, i believe, an allusion to "engage in adult social behavior", not a literal exhortation to cover one's legs. the vaccine technology is both new and old. most vaccines come with various levels of immediate side effects, and anecdotally, the COVID-19 ones seems to be at least as safe in this regard as any other vaccines that have been administered to hundreds of millions of people. It is true that the long term effects are unknown, and there could be some. However, most immunologists seem to be of the consensus that most after-effects from vaccines take place within a fairly narrow window, which we are now firmly out of for very large numbers of people. That doesn't rule out some hitherto unknown and unforeseen long side effect, but it does make it rather unlikely. Consequently, taking the vaccine is reasonably considered "adult social behavior" at this point, and is therefore analogous to "wearing pants".
easytiger 5y ago
> Come on people, get vaccinated and wear a damn mask! If we could do it, so can you! The vaccination or natural immunity, whilst not sterilising, has been proven incredibly effective. Mask wearing on the other hand is a toxic pseudoscience infiltrated by political sectarianism in the US in particular.
- bserge 5y ago
  From my PoV, wearing a mask is such a simple thing that I don't even notice it. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten Covid if I wore the mask (yeah, I half-arsed that and got infected talking to an obviously feverish person with the mask on my chin lol).
  - easytiger 5y ago
    > From my PoV, wearing a mask is such a simple thing that I don't even notice it I'm afraid I have a different psychology and physiology to you. A lot of people unfortunately think their experience dictates that their opinions should extend to how I breathe thus it manifests as policy. Not even to further discuss the real psychology of why they support such policies.
GlennS 5y ago
I think in most countries it isn't vaccine recitence that's the problem, but lack of vaccine supply.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Yeah because most countries are poor. In rich countries the problem is people who don't want to get vaccinated. We're throwing vaccines in the trash because nobody wants them...
Dma54rhs 5y ago
Getting obesity levels lower is extremely important during this pandemic. It's not only their health but they take previous hospital beds. Get vaccinated, lower the weight and wear a mask is the real message. Unfortunately just like anti vaxxers obesity is something to be praise now and even "healthy".
skocznymroczny 5y ago
How do you explain countries with very high vaccination rates which are having "record outbreaks"?
- ploika 5y ago
  Delta, in a word. It's important to note that while outbreaks are definitely happening, hospitalisations and deaths are way down compared to previous waves.
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  Depends on the country, for example are the conditions identical? I'd argue most aren't thanks to the Delta variant and many countries with high vaccination rates are also not locking down as hard which means there is a lot more transmission. Basically there are many confounding factors to take account of in order to understand the impact of vaccination on infection rate. For example here in Iceland (84% >12yo are fully vaccinated) we've increased restrictions but not nearly as much as we did for prior outbreaks and have substantially more tourists coming through the country. But at the same times as we've had many more infections we've had considerably fewer hospitalisations. Right now we're having kids go back to school and that's causing a spike in unvaccinated infections. The problem with looking just at headline numbers is you miss all the context.
- grecy 5y ago
  Because vaccinated people still get covid. In a highly vaccinated population going forward, the number of cases is utterly irrelevant. The only thing that actually matter is the number of hospitalizations and deaths. Remember - long term, literally everyone is going to get covid. That is the only possible future. The goal is hopefully to have everyone double vaccinated before they catch it so their symptoms are mild when they do.
  - tejohnso 5y ago
    > Remember - long term, literally everyone is going to get covid Should we stop bullying others to get vaccinated then?
ravenstine 5y ago
> Come on people, get vaccinated and wear a damn mask! If we could do it, so can you! Maybe condescending to people will work this time.
- moksly 5y ago
  If the condescending doesn’t work then try making them pay for the covid test themselves.
yosito 5y ago
Your comment makes absolutely no sense without mentioning where you are.
crisdux 5y ago
Thinking Denmark's success is mostly about vaccinations and masks ignores some other characteristics of Denmark and other "successful countries." These countries are largely healthier, more homogeneous societies with significantly lower rates of obesity, avoidable cancer, coronary artery disease, type 2 diabetes, etc - all which are significant risk factors for covid death and hospitalization. I do think lessoning exposure risk through masks and other measures are wise and useful - which some societies are better at doing. I also think its premature to think Denmark is out of the woods, considering that covid is following seasonal patterns and high vaccination rates don't seem to be avoid high infection rates. I hope you are right, but I am skeptical. There is a strong possibility you will return to these restrictions by the end of the year when the winter starts. We will see.
- moksly 5y ago
  > Thinking Denmark's success is mostly about vaccinations… It’s not thinking. This was our intentional strategy, and we were only capable of opening society and removing restrictions because we followed the plans. We are now gearing up to start round 3 of the vaccinations. How you can even debate the effectiveness of these vaccines is beyond me. It’s anti-science for no good reason. The vaccines work, every country that used them is getting to a place where the hospitals aren’t bogged down with dying people. Meanwhile the “akzhually” anti-science people in America are still dying in droves…
hncurious 5y ago
Get vaccinated, stay home if sick and most importantly lose weight. Losing weight will not only improve Covid outcomes drastically, but most of our other main health issues and hospital burden. > Covid-19 death rates 10 times higher in countries where most adults are overweight https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-deat...
kongin 5y ago
>Come on people, get vaccinated and wear a damn mask! If we could do it, so can you! I'm not sure if the sarcasm is just flying over my head, but the reason why the rest of the world is in lockdown is because we are discovering that even with 100% vaccination rates health systems can collapse and death rates can still be in the ballpark of 5 per million per day. The US governments have decided that those are acceptable losses and there is nothing to be done about them.
- nradov 5y ago
  The rest of the world is not in lockdown. Most European countries are reducing lockdown rules and mask mandates. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/coronavirus-denmark-removes-last-of-its-obligatory-mask-rules-2509641 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/coronavirus-denmark-removes-...

by moksly 5y ago

Majestic121 5y ago

You seem to be coming from a very 'us vs them' place, and misunderstanding why people do or do not want a vaccine. From my circles, the vaccine/mask defiance is mostly about what is perceived (wrongly in my opinion, but still) as an overreach from the state, and as a risky bet that they might not want to take. While I agree with you that this thinking is most probably coming from disinformation/propaganda, by countering it with condescension ('If we could do it, so can you!', 'brought together the stupid people') is the most definite way to have those people become defensive and stick to their opinion. Maybe you don't care about changing people mind and just want to score internet points from people already convinced, but be aware that it is what you're doing.

0xdeadb00f 5y ago
Fair enough. What do you suggest "we" (anti-anti-maskers and anti-anti-vaxers) say to these people in order to try and sway them to more factual information and keep them along with the rest of our communities safe? Most if not all of what I have said to such people is often met with responses like "No", "fake news", "watch this video by Dr. So-and-so". Or them flat out talking down to me thinking I'm a dumb person on the fence about it when in reality I'm far from on the fence about it.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  Nothing you can say. We feel how we feel. Covid is endemic it continues to mutate and evolve, we are all going to get it. Your health is and always has been your best defense. And smiling in public is not a biohazard.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    The big problem with a pandemic like COVID-19 is when it's presented in terms of personal risk. The reality remains that any given individual's chance of becoming seriously ill, let alone dying, from COVID-19 is extremely small. The problem is not this risk, but instead the risk that large numbers of people will be sick enough to require health care, particularly hospitalization and even more particularly ICU facilities, all within a very short period of time, causing overload of health care systems and many more unnecessary deaths from things other than COVID-19 due to the impairment of the health care system. But instead, huge chunks of the media/culture discuss COVID-19 in terms of personal risk. The personal responsibility that we have to each other in a pandemic like this is not a question of "I should do X because I might die of it", but rather "I should do X to reduce the risk that others will die of it and other illness". And no, "your health is and always has been your best defense" is a ludicrous position. It's abundantly clear that none of our socially-understood markers for "good health" are guarantoors of "covid will not kill you".
- shmel 5y ago
  I think the main problem with hesitancy is enormous mistrust to the government and to the state. The very same problem that led to Trump's victory. For decades people in power fuck the working class over, poor people repeatedly watch the government going against their interest and getting in bed with rich corporations all while lying through their teeth how they totally care about everyone. Now the government comes back and says: "please take this vaccine, it is really for your own sake, trust us, this time for real we truly care about you". What do you expect them to do? People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! This is not about the virus, as they say. This is not about the vaccine either. Many people across the world feel angry, ignored for years and powerless to change the status quo. They are miserable and see absolute contempt from the politicians. The same ones who now call for them to end the pandemic ASAP and go back to how things were before. The whole antivax fake news stuff taps directly into people's mistrust. When you live for years with the feeling "omg, these people are definitely lying to me", it takes just a few videos to confirm this: "oh yeah, they are _definitely_ lying to me and I am not alone to realize this". Go figure this out first.
  - watwut 5y ago
    But, Trump voters are not primary poor. If it is mistrust toward the state, how come it comes from the same groups that treat calls for police accountability as attack on police, support both military and police in pretty much any situation? That pushes for having cops as armed as possible? The same groups that right now managed to make abortion fully impossible in Texas? Whose primary approach to social issues is to make punishments higher? If it is against corporations, why is it coming from the same party that is actively and systematically working to make corporations stronger? > People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! Have you considered that the whole "own the libs" and "trigger the libs" is conscious attempt to make your opponents angry? And that those opponents do react to it too? That is the whole point, antagonize people you are owning or triggering. And that is somehow fault of people who you go out of way to antagonize?
  - deleted 5y ago
- dgfitz 5y ago
  Why do you feel the need to say anything at all? You feel How you feel, they feel how they feel, telling them “you need to feel how I feel” isn’t going to do much except make people angry. I got my 2 shots, I wear a mask when required. I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    > I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try. This is not a recipe for solid public health policy. Maybe it's fine as an individual life choice, but COVID-19 is a public health condition, not a private one, and requires public health responses, not private ones.
    - dgfitz 5y ago
      Hard disagree. The people that are going to get vaccinated either have or will at some point. The people who aren’t, won’t unless somehow forced. Policy won’t do anything except make people even more angry. Fuck policy. It really drives me nuts when people take the attitude “I know what’s best for you, you’re too stupid to be able to make your own decisions. I’m really smart and I’ll decide for you.”
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        No, absolutely no. None of this is about "what's best for you". As I said above, one of the biggest category errors with COVID-19 is to treat it as a personal risk issue. The personal risk is almost inconsequential, the real problem is with public health, and the decisions there have very little to do with "what's best for you" as an individual, and everything to do with "what's best for our health systems".
        dgfitz 5y ago
        What I’m saying is, policy won’t do bupkis. People are going to do what they want. This ideological idea that “policy will fix covid” is willful ignorance at this point.
watwut 5y ago
I would be more open to this point of view, if the "don't be condescending or insulting" expectation applied to both sides equally. I have yet to see it deployed toward those who try to emasculate guys who were masks, insist on framing choice to do as cowardly fear and so on. Btw, "nanny state" expression is exactly that. Or against those who exaggerate restrictions that exist in order to paint opposite side as super unreasonable. Sometimes in the future, if that applied to people who brag about triggering liberal snowflakes and such. As of now, to the extend there are sides, the "be nice dont offend" expectation is put on exactly one side, usually in order to make them shut up.
Layke1123 5y ago
No, you are normalizing amd validating behavior that is not tolerable for a rational society. These people have no basis for not wanting to take the vaccine that could very well save their lives, but more importantly, not affect my rights to live in a healthy society. Their rights ended when they demonstrated a complete lack of awareness of how not to spread a disease to others.
hanniabu 5y ago
> From my circles, the vaccine/mask defiance is mostly about what is perceived (wrongly in my opinion, but still) as an overreach from the state, and as a risky bet that they might not want to take. Then why is it typically those same people that want to remove women's ability to have an abortion?
- CapricornNoble 5y ago
  Who are "those same people"? I'm going to assume you mean conservative white people in flyover states? Do you understand that black and hispanic vaccination rates lag other ethnicities? [1][2] A couple of my group chats that are exclusively other black male expats, with origins ranging from Canada to the US to Kenya, are full of shared meme images and videos about the risks/dangers of COVID vaccination. Vehement opposition includes our one ER nurse-turned-millionaire-day-trader, and an aerospace engineer in the UK....We're definitely not a demographic screaming against abortion....hell, abortion saves a bunch of us from child support payments. (I'm only being slightly facetious). Long story short, I would suggest broadening your information exposure if you think only "those people" are hesitant/opposed to rushed COVID-19 vaccines being rammed down our throats by the same governments who approved of prescription opioids and the Tuskegee Experiment. [1]https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/ https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-... [2]https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/07/vaccine-equity-black-americans-biden-491973 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/07/vaccine-equity-blac...
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Many people only care about minorities who are convenient to the point being made, while ignoring the other minorities. I've spoken to people who excuse this as saying that we have to be practical and consider the majority of the minority group opinions (wasn't the point to help minorities?). For example, you never see liberals who virtue signal about giving minorities a platform trying to give a platform to trans people and Hispanics who supported Trump, conservative and anti-immigration or anti-abortion minorities, Hispanics offended by the word "latinx", blacks who disagree with renaming "master" branches in git, and your example of black and hispanic people who don't vaccinate.
moksly 5y ago
It was extremely easy to change peoples minds though. You simply have to make them pay to get tested. Then suddenly the vaccine was preferable. I’m not American, I don’t share your sentiments about letting people be people. A society is you and me and everyone else in it, working together. If you chose to work against the wider us for no good reason, then you’re no longer part of our society. Being anti-science is not a good enough reason for anyone to defend you around here.
- tejohnso 5y ago
  > extremely easy to change peoples minds though. If a serious enough pandemic arises, you won't have to change minds. Real fear of the pandemic will be enough. I don't know anybody, who knows anybody who died or was even hospitalized due to covid. All the fear and alarm has to be manufactured.
  - bumby 5y ago
    >I don't know anybody...All the fear" You seem to be extrapolating an n=1 scenario to the population as a whole ("I" --> "All"). Are you then implying anyone who does know somebody sick or hospitalized has warranted fear?
    - tejohnso 5y ago
      > Are you then implying anyone who does know somebody sick or hospitalized has warranted fear? I'm not talking about whether it is warranted or not, but if you know somebody sick or hospitalized, the fear you experience from that is likely to be very impactful, and you will be more inclined to get a vaccine based on that.
      - bumby 5y ago
        I agree. But I also acknowledge that type of heuristic probably isn't optimal.
  - bserge 5y ago
blululu 5y ago
I’ve heard this line of reasoning a lot but I’ve never seen anyone back it up with much of evidence beyond the usual platitudes of liberal parenting. (Note that I also find modern American child rearing techniques to be a set of failures where children act as little dictators and their gentle, caring parents desperately try to convince their kids to behave). I can’t help but see the same patterns at work here. Personally I’ll stick with a firm insistence that Covid presents serious risks, vaccines are safe and effective, and the inability to comprehend a scientific paper or even copy off the homework of the smart kids is a shameful embarrassment. If that doesn’t vibe with someone’s AYSO participation trophy mindset, though luck, we have a global pandemic to deal with so man up and take one for the team. If you think babying people with gentle appeals is working, take a cold look at the results of polite messaging campaigns.
- Majestic121 5y ago
  My point of view is closer to yours than you might think : I'm definitely pro-vaccination, and I do believe at least some categories of population should have mandatory vaccine (teachers, medical, etc...). My point was mainly about the self-congratulatory tone of the message above, whose main effect is to : - create tension with people that disagree - gain approval from people that already agree And in the end make the subject more tense than it has to be. No one bats an eye for other mandatory vaccine, this one creates tension because of propaganda campaigns and some valid concerns (like mrna vaccine being pretty new), but the answer to those tensions is not exacerbating an "us vs them" mentality
  - odessacubbage 5y ago
    at some point we all learned instinctively that the best way to farm internet points is not to extend olive branches but to set them on fire.
  - blululu 5y ago
    I noticed in your previous point that you are not opposed to the widespread use of vaccines and that you are in favor of taking action to stop the danger posed by covid. The question I am asking is about tactics for getting everyone working together to put an end to this. I keep hearing people suggest that we can’t be condescending because we shouldn’t offend anyone or make anybody feel bad and I am not seeing it do much good. Shame is a powerful social mechanism and I don’t see why we shouldn’t use it. What are you actually proposing? A clear statement of facts is a good start, but what do you recommend after that?
rsynnott 5y ago
This idea that idiots are extremely sensitive and will deepen their belief in nonsense _out of spite_ if confronted seems to have become very widespread, but is there any reason to think it's true? If anything, their nonsense is being taken too seriously; a lot of media both-sides it to some extent in a way that it wouldn't with, say, flat-earthers. And, while there are a lot of confounding factors, of course, there seem to be fewer people buying all the horse drugs in countries where the media was dismissive of them, vs in countries where parts of the media both-side-ed it.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  We've learnt from past medical adventures that things in this domain are frequently not as straightforward as many would like them to be, or as they are portrayed to be. The poster child for this for my generation (I'm 57) would be thalidomide, but there are lots of other less catastrophic examples of "proven" medical technology and treatments that turned out to be not quite as safe and side-effect-free as was initially claimed. For some communities too, there are clear cut cases of the medical establishment and/or the state deliberately and knowingly experimenting on people with unstated/hidden agendas. This makes media handling of some of these claims in comparison to flat-earthers a bit more understandable, whether or not time eventually shows it to be justified or not.

graeme 5y ago

If you’re in a northern country with a pronounced summer and a winter flu season, I’d wait a bit before celebrating. Europe and Canada celebrated victory in summer 2020 compared to the US. Then it all soured. Every stats in those countries now celebrating is worse than it was early sept 2020. Deaths, hospitalizations, ICU….all worse. It’s not just cases. Respiratory viruses get worse in winter. The hope is this one won’t, or that herd immunity is finally reached, despite a higher case load than last year.

scrollaway 5y ago
> Every stats in those countries now celebrating is worse than it was early sept 2020. Well, no, we have 70-85 percent fully vaccinated population in Europe, and a lot of the remaining 25 percent most likely has antibodies. This isn't the same as last year. Experts here in Belgium argue that we should be lifting restrictions ASAP so that the infections are flattened out and don't all happen during winter.
- graeme 5y ago
  Belgium, compared to sept 2nd 2020: Cases: 5x Deaths: 2x Hospitalizations: 2.5x ICU: 2.5x Tiny compared to winter? Yes. But this is a seasonal respiratory virus and this season is worse than last year same time. Now, the theory is you can go back to normal, massively increase viral doses in the air, and not see a rise through winter. Because of immunity. But, breakthroughs seem to happen more easily at high viral doses. The other thing is, antibodies wane. Israel had to do boosters, they found greater susceptibility the further people got from their vax date. Boosters have reversed severe disease trends for now, and is optimistic. But they also have restrictions. I don’t know which way the future goes. My point is just that it is terribly premature to declare victory over a respiratory virus in summer. Europe made exactly the same mistake last year. You won’t know till winter. The other thing people forget is that efficacy is a relative measure, but hospitalizations are absolute. Ok, so, 95% efficacy in reducing hospitalizations compared to unvaccinated. Great! I got the vaccines myself, but that is a great result. So, on absolute terms, you have 20x less risk of hospitalization from the wild type variant at case levels at a given point. But….Delta is associated with a 2x increase in hosp risk compared to wild type. Oops ok so we have only a 10x absolute reduction in hospitalization risk. And cases are 5x higher than this time last year. Oops, ok, compared to sept 2nd 2020 a vaccinated Belgian has only a 2x absolute reduced risk of hospitalization compared to same time last year. (An unvaccinated Belgian with no prior infection has a 10x higher risk, efficacy vs severe disease still 95%) If cases go high enough you still see severe disease, even with vaccines. Maybe impossible for cases to hit 100,000 a day in Belgium, 5x winter peak. But Israel already 60% higher than winter peak, in summer, with boosters, and restrictions. So what happens without restrictions, in winter? (I’m assuming Belgium will get boosters)

tellersid 5y ago

I am fully vaccinated and will get a booster as soon as offered but even I am so sick of people preaching about this. You do your part individually and that is the best you can do. All you are doing when you post something like this is causing a visceral reaction in the people that need to get vaccinated of "fuck you internet guy, I am not listening to you, I am not getting vaccinate!" The people I know that are not vaccinated are this exactly. They are so pig headed that if you preach at them they will dig in their heals and do the opposite almost automatically. We need people to just shut up about this already and dial everything back so it is not some admission of defeat for pig headed people who haven't got the vaccine to actually do so.

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moksly 5y ago
If you want to be part of society you have to wear pants and you have to get vaccinated. If you can’t do those things then you can go somewhere else. Or at least pay for your own covid test that clears you for a visit into society for 24 hours. We can’t be burdened by the village idiot forever.
- deleted 5y ago
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- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  wearing pants != getting vaccinated, not in the slightest. Stop comparing the two. We've been wearing pants for several centuries now, this vaccine is new. The mRNA vaccines are not the same as past vaccines in either their immediate effect (I was zonked out for three days) or in their long-term effects (which, despite how safe they seem so far are simply not tested long term). I say this as somebody who is fully vaccinated (Johnson & Johnson).
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    "wearing pants" is, i believe, an allusion to "engage in adult social behavior", not a literal exhortation to cover one's legs. the vaccine technology is both new and old. most vaccines come with various levels of immediate side effects, and anecdotally, the COVID-19 ones seems to be at least as safe in this regard as any other vaccines that have been administered to hundreds of millions of people. It is true that the long term effects are unknown, and there could be some. However, most immunologists seem to be of the consensus that most after-effects from vaccines take place within a fairly narrow window, which we are now firmly out of for very large numbers of people. That doesn't rule out some hitherto unknown and unforeseen long side effect, but it does make it rather unlikely. Consequently, taking the vaccine is reasonably considered "adult social behavior" at this point, and is therefore analogous to "wearing pants".

easytiger 5y ago

> Come on people, get vaccinated and wear a damn mask! If we could do it, so can you! The vaccination or natural immunity, whilst not sterilising, has been proven incredibly effective. Mask wearing on the other hand is a toxic pseudoscience infiltrated by political sectarianism in the US in particular.

bserge 5y ago
From my PoV, wearing a mask is such a simple thing that I don't even notice it. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten Covid if I wore the mask (yeah, I half-arsed that and got infected talking to an obviously feverish person with the mask on my chin lol).
- easytiger 5y ago
  > From my PoV, wearing a mask is such a simple thing that I don't even notice it I'm afraid I have a different psychology and physiology to you. A lot of people unfortunately think their experience dictates that their opinions should extend to how I breathe thus it manifests as policy. Not even to further discuss the real psychology of why they support such policies.

GlennS 5y ago

I think in most countries it isn't vaccine recitence that's the problem, but lack of vaccine supply.

adrianN 5y ago
Yeah because most countries are poor. In rich countries the problem is people who don't want to get vaccinated. We're throwing vaccines in the trash because nobody wants them...

Dma54rhs 5y ago

Getting obesity levels lower is extremely important during this pandemic. It's not only their health but they take previous hospital beds. Get vaccinated, lower the weight and wear a mask is the real message. Unfortunately just like anti vaxxers obesity is something to be praise now and even "healthy".

skocznymroczny 5y ago

How do you explain countries with very high vaccination rates which are having "record outbreaks"?

ploika 5y ago
Delta, in a word. It's important to note that while outbreaks are definitely happening, hospitalisations and deaths are way down compared to previous waves.
meheleventyone 5y ago
Depends on the country, for example are the conditions identical? I'd argue most aren't thanks to the Delta variant and many countries with high vaccination rates are also not locking down as hard which means there is a lot more transmission. Basically there are many confounding factors to take account of in order to understand the impact of vaccination on infection rate. For example here in Iceland (84% >12yo are fully vaccinated) we've increased restrictions but not nearly as much as we did for prior outbreaks and have substantially more tourists coming through the country. But at the same times as we've had many more infections we've had considerably fewer hospitalisations. Right now we're having kids go back to school and that's causing a spike in unvaccinated infections. The problem with looking just at headline numbers is you miss all the context.
grecy 5y ago
Because vaccinated people still get covid. In a highly vaccinated population going forward, the number of cases is utterly irrelevant. The only thing that actually matter is the number of hospitalizations and deaths. Remember - long term, literally everyone is going to get covid. That is the only possible future. The goal is hopefully to have everyone double vaccinated before they catch it so their symptoms are mild when they do.
- tejohnso 5y ago
  > Remember - long term, literally everyone is going to get covid Should we stop bullying others to get vaccinated then?

ravenstine 5y ago

> Come on people, get vaccinated and wear a damn mask! If we could do it, so can you! Maybe condescending to people will work this time.

moksly 5y ago
If the condescending doesn’t work then try making them pay for the covid test themselves.

yosito 5y ago

Your comment makes absolutely no sense without mentioning where you are.

crisdux 5y ago

Thinking Denmark's success is mostly about vaccinations and masks ignores some other characteristics of Denmark and other "successful countries." These countries are largely healthier, more homogeneous societies with significantly lower rates of obesity, avoidable cancer, coronary artery disease, type 2 diabetes, etc - all which are significant risk factors for covid death and hospitalization. I do think lessoning exposure risk through masks and other measures are wise and useful - which some societies are better at doing. I also think its premature to think Denmark is out of the woods, considering that covid is following seasonal patterns and high vaccination rates don't seem to be avoid high infection rates. I hope you are right, but I am skeptical. There is a strong possibility you will return to these restrictions by the end of the year when the winter starts. We will see.

moksly 5y ago
> Thinking Denmark's success is mostly about vaccinations… It’s not thinking. This was our intentional strategy, and we were only capable of opening society and removing restrictions because we followed the plans. We are now gearing up to start round 3 of the vaccinations. How you can even debate the effectiveness of these vaccines is beyond me. It’s anti-science for no good reason. The vaccines work, every country that used them is getting to a place where the hospitals aren’t bogged down with dying people. Meanwhile the “akzhually” anti-science people in America are still dying in droves…

hncurious 5y ago

Get vaccinated, stay home if sick and most importantly lose weight. Losing weight will not only improve Covid outcomes drastically, but most of our other main health issues and hospital burden. > Covid-19 death rates 10 times higher in countries where most adults are overweight https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-deat...

kongin 5y ago

>Come on people, get vaccinated and wear a damn mask! If we could do it, so can you! I'm not sure if the sarcasm is just flying over my head, but the reason why the rest of the world is in lockdown is because we are discovering that even with 100% vaccination rates health systems can collapse and death rates can still be in the ballpark of 5 per million per day. The US governments have decided that those are acceptable losses and there is nothing to be done about them.

nradov 5y ago
The rest of the world is not in lockdown. Most European countries are reducing lockdown rules and mask mandates. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/coronavirus-denmark-removes-last-of-its-obligatory-mask-rules-2509641 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/coronavirus-denmark-removes-...