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Finger counting gives away your nationality
- rcarmo 5y agoThis is bunk. I’m Portuguese and I start by joining the thumb with my pinky, brush it through the other fingers, then raise my thumb as “5”. Nobody I know does that, it’s a personal trait.
- ARandomerDude 5y agoMy grandmother used to say "well, not all dogs have flees..." It was annoying back then too.
- jjgreen 5y agoDrinking outside a bar in Paris (so table service) with my girlfriend, the glasses approach empty so I turn to catch the barman's eye. He flicks the Vs (I am culturally sensitive so not offended, he means "two more pints?"), I return the thumbs-up. He brings one pint.
- dylan604 5y agoThat's interesting. How can one differentiate the two then? Does the wrist position matter? A thumb out with the wrist twisted so the thumb is at an angle indicates "1", but a forward thrusted wrist so the thumb is pointing up and towards the person mean "yes, good job"? Is the second meaning lost entirely to the barman? If you had flashed OK hand gesture, would the barman have poured 3 pints, or thought you were a member of a fringe group?
- rpmisms 5y ago> If you had flashed OK hand gesture... thought you were a member of a fringe group? For what it's worth, this hand sign being a hate dogwhistle is pretty much entirely an invention of 4chan.
- MengerSponge 5y ago> invention of 4chan They set out to transform a symbol, and they succeeded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol If you think it isn't real because it was made up, Vonnegut's Mother Night has you covered: "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
- rpmisms 5y agoI think you're seeing a slightly different narrative. 4chan decided to make people upset about the hand sign, some major news networks obediently expressed outrage, and a whole lot of people who actively dislike said news channels discovered a whole new way to generate headlines.
- not2b 5y agoThey were so successful at marketing the idea that the "ok" sign meant White Power that white nationalists started using it that way and the meaning shifted. And since a lot of the 4chan people are deeply racist they were basically saying "let's take over this symbol". And they succeeded.
- kukx 5y agoAs far as I know 4chan people were trolling the media and they succeeded. The result is both funny and scary. The scary part is that random people's lives are harmed because of some innocent photo or gesture. This insanity stems not only from media but also the new culture. Hopefully when going back to normality we will not swing too much to the other side.
- Quanttek 5y agoYou're completely ignoring the fact, started in the comment as well, that white nationalists have widely adopted the signal subsequently
- slim 5y agoHe should have nodded his head
- dylan604 5y agoCareful, is that a singular movement from up to down in affirmation, or a singular movement from down to up as in "what's up"? in some situations, the first would mean send in the assassin to take out that person involved in that thing. that's one you don't want to use at the wrong time.
- FredPret 5y agoIt’s a wonder we humans get anything done
- Leherenn 5y agoIt's going to depend based on context. In this case, context was unclear and a misunderstanding ensued. I have nothing to back this up except experience, but I think the thumb up is less common is Europe than in the US. In this specific case, I think the expected answer is to confirm the number by flashing the same sign. A nod would also work, but be potentially less clear/easier to be missed. The ok gesture would likely have worked as well, since in France they start counting from the thumb. I don't think the fringe group association is well known in France.
- bombela 5y agoThe ok sign usually means zero in France. In this situation; as a Frenchy; I would have repeated the count to confirm while nodding. Or waved my hand while shaking my head to refuse.
- touisteur 5y agoOr waved your finger to say no, or as a real French just shout through 'patron ya marée basse, r'mets voir les p'tites soeurs !'. Thumbs up would work too, maybe both thumbs up, once you're sure the guy understood you wanted two pint... We may use the OK sign to signify 'au poil' (very fine) most often with pinched lips (mock Italian face).
- grandpa_on_lawn 5y agoNodding the head is probably the better way.
- bsanr2 5y agoI've heard of situations where the nod/shake are switched. Better just go with the waggle.
- nautilius 5y agoI find it curious that you mention your not being offended at some gesture that happens to mean something a couple 100 or 1000 miles away from where you saw the gesture. Why would it require extra cultural sensitivity to realize that, if you visit some other place, that they have a different language (verbal and non-verbal)?
- Lammy 5y agoIt's hard to turn off a reflex to something you normally consider an offensive gesture. That kind of unconscious thought works faster than the "…oh, yeah, nevermind" thought. See also: how many times I've unconsciously started pumping my own gas when I drive through Oregon even though I "know" not to.
- nautilius 5y agoIt’s funny that you write this like it was some natural law rather than your own personal mentality.
- Lammy 5y ago> like it was some natural law Yeah https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Simple%20vs. https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clems...
- nautilius 5y agoHmm. I still see nothing about a natural law of having to be offended when I misunderstand a different language. For me personally, the whole context shifts. Does your heart start pumping when you see a photograph of Churchill making the same gesture? It's hard for me to connect your example of filling gas in Oregon to being reflexively insulted. Is that how you feel in your car, reflexively offended by Oregonian gas stations before your cultural sensitivity has time to resurface? Again, I have to say that I am sure personal differences are strong here, because I don't feel an uncontrollable bodily urge to jump put and fill up the tank within 140-220ms [1] of arriving at a gas station before my consciousness kicks in and I can make decisions again. [1] From your linked article.
- yogenpro 5y agoSorry for being ignorant but sincere question: where / which culture considers the V gesture offensive? I'm assuming the V gesture you are referring to is the one that consists of holding up both index finger and middle finger, rather than the one with thumb and index finger.
- undersuit 5y agoIIRC you aren't supposed to hitchhike with a thumbs up in New Zealand, so I'm guessing we're dealing with a Kiwi. :)
- peterburkimsher 5y agoReally? I just moved to NZ a couple of years ago and don't know how to drive, so will be wanting to hitchhike! What is a better gesture? "I’ve always used the traditional thumb approach (the norm for NZ)." https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/ https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/
- darren_ 5y agoNZer, have never heard anything about not using thumbs-up for hitchhiking. I also can't imagine anyone (at least in NZ), who would be otherwise inclined to give you a ride, somehow getting irate about it either.
- unearth3d 5y agoI'm an NZer, you are definitely wrong. You may be thinking of Turkey.
- undersuit 5y agoI have no idea any more. I can't find straight answers on a lot of these country and hand sign associations.
- polka_haunts_us 5y ago
- bsanr2 5y agoDuring the Olympics, I noticed that many athletes seemed confused about where to go following their races/runs/performances. It always took them a second to orient and proceed in the direction the volunteers wanted them to go. I wondered (but never did find pictorial evidence) if it might have to do with the common Japanese gesture for "come this way," which, by happenstance, is almost identical to the rest of the world's gesture for "go away." https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/tokyo-weekender-japanese-gestures-come-here.gif https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/to...
- johndoe0815 5y agoThis can be fatal - as shown in Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds...
- beckman466 5y ago"Three glasses." - Those goddamn people from Piz Palü! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Ckh80mLlQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Ckh80mLlQ
- jawns 5y agoThere's a distinction to be made between counting on one's fingers and communicating a number with one's fingers. You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of fingers. But when it comes to 11 and up, you're generally not going to be able to communicate those numbers in a universally recognizable way. (Although "flashing" one's hands to represent intervals of ten is somewhat well understood.) On the other hand, it's possible to use your fingers to count to numbers higher than 10, using whatever system appeals to you, regardless of whether others can understand it. The article talks about using the segments between each knuckle. There's even a further distinction to be made here, though, between using your fingers to count and using your fingers to maintain state. You might, for instance, be able to easily use knuckle segments to count. But to maintain state, you need to make some movement with your fingers (e.g. bending a knuckle) with each transition period and then hold that new position for some period of time. And that can be hard to do with many finger positions.
- sorbits 5y ago> You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of fingers For the numbers 6-10 China have hand gestures where number of fingers held up does not correspond to the number. I was confused by this when I wanted to buy something and the lady crossed her two index fingers. I took it to mean that the item was not for sale (out of stock), but later learned that this is the hand gesture for the number ten.
- iakh 5y agoFor additional context to others, it's the Chinese character for the number 10 (十)
- omegalulw 5y ago> it's possible to use your fingers to count to numbers This is tangential, but why do people count to themselves using fingers? Why not just count in your head?
- tyingq 5y agoGot 3 beers in Germany when I wanted 2 many, many, times before I learned.
- jerf 5y agoYou've piqued my curiosity; what did you think meant 2 that they thought meant 3?
- tyingq 5y agoI did index+middle for 2. They would do thumb+index for 2, and thumb+index+middle for 3. They didn't do index+middle for anything other than maybe "peace sign". So from a distance, my "2" would look like "3" to them. It was a rural area in Germany, in the late 80's, early 90's.
- dylan604 5y agoIndex + middle in an upward movement would probably be taken as something other than peace
- kubanczyk 5y agoNo, not likely in 90s in Germany. What you're describing is primarily a UK gesture. (Wikipedia says also known in Ireland, South Africa, Australia, India, etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult
- jhncls 5y agoThe correct way is to count in binary, and easily reach 1023 without needing a third hand [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary
- cochne 5y agoThe number 4 may be an issue for some cultures!
- mngnt 5y agoSo 4 is the numeric equivalent of a raised middle finger.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago> and easily reach 1023 without needing a third hand Given that most people cannot move their ring finger independently of their middle finger, this seems like a stretch.
- thom 5y agoTry it. It works.
- thaumasiotes 5y agoI've tried it. It doesn't work.
- Joker_vD 5y agoI personally can't bend my pinkie without bending the ring finger, not the middle finger.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Toutouxc 5y ago
- mngnt 5y agoI like what I got to know as "the Japanese way" to count to 144 on my fingers. I´m sure it´s not exclusive to Japan tho. Using thumb as a pointer, I count not on the fingers, but their segments. Each finger is 3 segments, which gives 12 per hand. Now, to boost it, one hand is used to count the dozens from the other hand. Gets me thinking, maybe this is one of the reasons for popularity of 12-based systems in ancient times? Did our ancestors just use their counting fingers better?
- thaumasiotes 5y ago> maybe this is one of the reasons for popularity of 12-based systems in ancient times? The popularity of 12-based systems is due to the fact that 12 is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.
- mngnt 5y agoThat was on my ming when I wrote "one of the".
- sombremesa 5y agoFrom TFA: > In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count. This means each digit can represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20. Which is false. This method is indeed "taught" (folk, not academia) in India (and Japan), but it's not the way a majority of natives will actually count in everyday situations. There are indeed important cultural distinctions re:counting in areas (like tally marks), but articles like these which are plausible yet false (this isn't a shibboleth at all) muddy the waters.
- harywilke 5y agoThis might interest you. "Sexagesimal, also known as base 60 or sexagenary,[1] is a numeral system with sixty as its base. It originated with the ancient Sumerians in the 3rd millennium BC, was passed down to the ancient Babylonians, and is still used—in a modified form—for measuring time, angles, and geographic coordinates. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal
- betwixthewires 5y agoReminds me of that scene in Inglorious Basterds where the spies are outed because of this.
- gumby 5y ago> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count. My mother does this, and additionally used to do arithmetic this way. She never really taught us how to do math this way.
- selimthegrim 5y agoWe (Pakistani family) used to do rosary (mala) on our fingers this way
- nikhilgk 5y ago> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count. > This means each digit can represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20. The first part is true, but not the second part. You use the thumb as a pointer to track the lines on the other 4 fingers. So you count up to 16 on each hand. Besides, the thumb has 1 line segment less than the other fingers.
- drran 5y agoIt is possible to count to 54 on one hand by counting "bump - valley" and by flipping the hand, so to 108 using both.
- Gunax 5y agoI see only 2 or 3 line segments... also seems difficult to connect thumb to pinky bottom
- MisterSandman 5y agoI think this is open to interpretation. I'm from India but actually count 3 per finger (i.e. the 3 spaces on your finger between the lines), counting up to a max of 12 per hand.
- 11thEarlOfMar 5y agoAnd a key plot point in Inglourious Basterds. https://www.businessinsider.com/order-a-beer-like-a-german-2014-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/order-a-beer-like-a-german-2...
- pedrosorio 5y agoThe bbc article claims in the UK (and “many countries in Europe”) start with the thumb, but the Inglorious Basterds scene seems to contradict that. The business insider article also claims people start counting with their thumb in Portugal but I start with the index finger and while I’m not sure everyone else does it, I think using the 3 middle fingers to represent the number 3 (like the British spy) is far more common than using the thumb.
- dylan604 5y agoIf I start counting thumb-1, index-2, middle-3, i can't raise my ring finger without the pinky coming up to properly display 4 fingers up. If I start counting index-1, middle-2, ring-3, my thumb holds down the pinky to display 3 fingers. Until just now, I had never tried, so I assume it is a practice thing. Edit: should have read further in the thread. i'm clearly not the only one
- skipants 5y agoI'm Canadian and I'm assuming it's the same as Brits: We start counting with our thumb but if we represent a number less than 5 without counting then we do not use our thumb. That's why it doesn't contradict what happened in Inglourious Basterds.
- uuddlrlr 5y agoCanuck here too, I grew up starting with index but I see lots of thumb starters.
- dspillett 5y agoEnglish here, and yes counting starts with the thumb but going direct to two or three is just fingers. Middle three for three, not pinky and the next two or the shocker. This isn't universal, but in my experience by far the most common way. Our spoken and written language is a mess of inconsistencies, why shouldn't our numeracy be!
- odiroot 5y agoI really like the Chinese way of counting. As far as I remember you can go as high as 99 on both hands. Still, I'm never able to memorise it, no matter how many times I learn it.
- meowster 5y agoCounting money can aslo give you away. Video (1:48) showing different methods: https://youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ https://youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ
- Causality1 5y agoOne thing not mentioned is that finger counting methods vary based on context as well as culture. If I'm counting to myself I start with the thumb. If I'm using finger counting as part of body language like by speaking about three points one by one, I start with the index finger.
- Lammy 5y agoI first learned about this from the regional box art variations for Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (1994): - JP: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3-box-jap.jpg https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3-box-jap.jpg - US: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3_md_us_cover.jpg https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3_md_us_cover.jpg - EU: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:S3-eu-box.jpg https://info.sonicretro.org/File:S3-eu-box.jpg
- adventured 5y agoWhen I was young I first realized that there was regional variety to this in the US, from Michael Jordan (he grew up in North Carolina): 2: https://i.imgur.com/J7MaBUq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/J7MaBUq.jpg 3: https://i.imgur.com/wORrZjC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wORrZjC.jpg Where I grew up, several states north of the Carolinas, three is pretty much always the index/fore + middle + ring fingers. Prior to seeing Jordan do that I didn't recall having noticed someone counting / signaling three with the pinky instead of the index.
- Talanes 5y agoEvery time I've heard some variation of this, the example is always three. I'm more interested in four. Does the pattern follow through? Because I physically can't hold up 3 fingers and my thumb without the pinky going up to, when I do 3, my thumb is holding my pinky down.
- coccinelle 5y agoI think French people would do 4 with just the pinkie down. At least this specific French person does :). In my case that means the ring finger is not perfectly up, but still enough that it's clear it's raised.
- kergonath 5y agoFrom my experience most French people keep only the thumb down to signal “4”. It’s easier to do.
- callmeal 5y ago>Because I physically can't hold up 3 fingers and my thumb without the pinky going up to, when I do 3, my thumb is holding my pinky down. laughs in piano I think I can move multiple fingers independently and concurrently thanks to a lot of piano drills!
- Milolol 5y agoMoney counting as well: "How money is counted in different countries" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ragona 5y agoAn interesting exception to this is that American Sign Language (ASL) counts differently from normal American cultural hand counting. For example, three involves a thumb, whereas the normal US/UK idiom is only fingers.
- jbluepolarbear 5y agoI’ve always counted starting with the thumb, but use fingers only when showing a value lower than 5. And this is how my family does it too.
- rzzzt 5y agoIn <local country>, the countdown for launching rally cars is different from the regular order: 5 - all fingers extended, 4 - thumb bent, 3 - pinky bent, 2 - ring finger retracts, 1 - middle finger bent, 0 - index finger points toward road to signal "go".
- dghughes 5y agoWired has some videos on Youtube interviewing a former spy chief. In it she said one of the things that can give you away as a spy is the way you count with you fingers.
- ncmncm 5y agoI was told while in eastern Europe that, in Russia, you signal numbers by tucking fingers. Just the thumb tucked: one, thumb and forefinger: two, a fist: five. It is all very arbitrary. The Quentin Tarentino scene was very unconvincing. Fassbinder's character was well travelled, and could have any number of reasons for having a different habit. I bet there were and are places in Germany that differ from the common form, and even that match the English convention; and places in England that match Germany's. (But probably not Russia's.) Similarly, somebody who left their shoe at the scene of a firefight, if not stupid, would toss the other one immediately.
- pandaman 5y agoFrom my experience of growing up and living in Russia, I have not seen anybody showing numbers like this. People do count by tucking fingers but if they show a number to somebody else they show it with straight fingers, starting with the index and ending with the thumb. Could be some regional thing, Russia is pretty big.