11 ms·

I have a slight resentment towards the complainant in this article who accused her boss of sexism for giving her feedback on her speaking mannerisms during pres

• MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
  I understand that resentment. I hope that the uncertainty, lack of authority, and amateurism that I ascribe to up-speaking is rightly placed. I hope that it's just a matter of cultural norms that young women are the most likely to speak this way. But what if there's nothing intrinsically grating about up-speaking, and instead it only reminds us of young women? I've convinced myself that it's the former, but it wouldn't blow my mind if I were wrong.
  • nightowl_games 5y ago
    Upspeaking is subconsciously used as a defense mechanism. It is advertising a lack of confidence, which is intended to draw a cooperative rather than combative response. It is signalling that "I am unsure of what I am saying". It is based off of the vocal intention of inquisition. It is a subconscious defense mechanism. The bias you speak of is omnipresent. It is also within the speaker. Think about that. The speaker chooses to deploy a style that will bias the listener to view the speaker in a certain way. The bias being present in the speaker is the key factor to understanding this phenomenon. The experiment that I propose is: if the bias was gone, would the speaker still use this speaking technique?
    • watwut 5y ago
      You know, the speaker is quite often NOT choosing this "technique". The speaker simply speaks focusing on content and that is what voice does, whether innately or because brain mimics other people speaking. No beginner speaker is in complete conscious control over every detail. Nor are they expected to be, really.
      • junon 5y ago
        GP never said this was a conscious decision. Most of the time the speaker doesn't realize they're doing it. It's similar to body language.
        • watwut 5y ago
          > The speaker chooses to deploy a style [...] The bias being present in the speaker is the key factor to understanding this phenomenon. The experiment that I propose is: if the bias was gone, would the speaker still use this speaking technique?
          • junon 5y ago
            > . . . subconsciously used as a defense mechanism > It is a subconscious defense mechanism. Clearly they mean the "choice" is subconscious. Perhaps poor wording but only if you ignore the rest of the comment is it unclear what they mean.
            • nightowl_games 5y ago
              I appreciate your statements here. You are correct. It's an unconscious choice. Remember: the bias exists in the speaker.
              • watwut 5y ago
                That does not make any sense. You are projecting own feelings into speaker and then claiming speaker somehow want you to have those feelings.
  • n8cpdx 5y ago
    Why do people need to sound authoritative? I hear a lot of bullshit from people who focus on how they sound. Can't authority be established through work history? TBH, the more polished and confident a presenter sounds, the more likely they are to be actively bullshitting, and it's really annoying to see people fall for it "because he sounded so confident." If you are ignoring someone's point because of the sound of voice, rather than quality of content... Yikes. I guess certain silicon valley-isms (e.g. Theranos) start to make sense if people really do that in a corporate setting.
    • DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
      > Can't authority be established through work history? No. We're still (relatively primitive) animals: we have plenty of well-documented "vulns" and internal biases that affect our decision-making and opinion-forming abilities - and these come from both actual-instinctive habits (like how we're generally predisposed to be biased towards selecting tall people as leaders or for promotion) and learned biases from our cultural upbringing (e.g. racism in the southern US).
    • khazhoux 5y ago
      I'm not talking about bullshitty Power Speaker polish. The vocal uptilt --at least in common native-English dialects-- turns statements into questions, and/or indicates that the speaker seeks agreement or approval from the listener. Do it here and there and it's no problem. Do it for every sentence and it's very off-putting, and distracts from the content itself. It's not radically different advice from not saying Umm every two words, not mumbling/eating half your sentence, not talking to a room in a whisper, etc.
      • HPsquared 5y ago
        It's even more obvious/annoying if you speak one of the many languages where the only way to ask a question is to raise pitch at the end of a statement.
        • op00to 5y ago
  • DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    > But what if there's nothing intrinsically grating about up-speaking, and instead it only reminds us of young women? One of my autistic-traits is that some vocal sounds, tics, and things like that are incredibly irritating to me - it's nothing to do with any mental-associations like that, it's just something my brain/body does. ...but if I were in the same position I'd probably just grin-and-bear it: it's not something worth raising a (potential) fuss over, especially the optics of being seen as being sexist or "man-splaining" to a woman how they should speak (a huge obvious no-no right there).
    • jmeister 5y ago
      Ironically, neurodiversity — the kind of diversity that matters most for intellectual work — gets choked in the current DEI rush.
      • eliasmacpherson 5y ago
        My and other's regional accents have been the source of consternation at work. Speakers with regional accents have been encouraged to modify them for the benefit of non native English speakers by the DEI group. I find that ironic.
        • DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
          > I find that ironic. Whyso? At work you're expected to function as a team, and part of being a team necessarily means needing to make personal compromises for the team's sake. In this situation, non-native English speakers are going through the monumental effort of both learning English and having to put their skills to the test every day instead of them working and communicating in their fluent language. While people with accents such that they're harder for non-native speakers to understand are being asked to have clearer enunciation - for the sake of the team. You're not being asked to change your accent, just to have clearer enunciation (if your org's DEI team said "accent" instead of "enunciation" then their wording is unhelpfully vague or demonstrably open to misinterpretation) - and not for the benefit of people who aren't themselves doing anything for their own situation (it's not like the non-native English speakers in your workplace are insisting everyone speak their language, after all). Everyone is making a compromise for everyone's sake. There's nothing ironic about it at all - just unfortunate messaging from the DEI people.
  • khazhoux 5y ago
    There's maybe a more direct way of saying that: "Hey khazhoux, maybe you /are/ sexist for thinking that a vocal trait sometimes associated with young women is a sign of amateurism." The tricky thing about unconscious bias is of course that it's hard to know when you're carrying it. Nonetheless, I'm fairly confident that that speaking style would be considered un-authoritative by most people, and as a manager I see my job as how to help the individual whose career could be impacted by cultural norms both fair and unfair.
    • MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
      Seemed less rude to make it about me ;) I like how you describe it below, as just another nervous habit in public speaking. A very annoying one.
  • op00to 5y ago
    It’s totally the latter. Men are allowed whatever speech patterns they like, but women have to have perfect pitch throughout an entire sentence? Is that reasonable?
    • hopelessattic 5y ago
      I would—and have—provide the same feedback to a man. I'd consider it sexist not to offer the same level of guidance just because of gender.
• notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  I was just about to say, especially if you are a manager, the way you communicate, the way people hear you, and the way you express yourself are really important and should be on the table for discussion. Upspeak at the end of sentences, even if women are more likely to speak this way, sounds like questioning and undermines the authoritative tone that most managers are trying to convey. It's worth working on it and it's worth rewarding if your reports can eliminate it from their speech.
• quotha 5y ago
  Hey khazhoux, you /are/ sexist for thinking that a vocal trait associated with young women is a sign of amateurism.
  • khazhoux 5y ago
    There's actually a less direct way of saying that! :-)
  • hsb1828jekx 5y ago
    Genuinely curious how this was your takeaway from khazhoux’s comment. OP recognized a vocal trait they thought was holding someone back, helped them to remedy it in a non-confrontational or aggressive way, and the person grew from it professionally. The person was female and OP noted this in the context of the Apple case to highlight how they would have felt had they been accused of sexism for specifying the vocal trait in feedback to their employee. Where is the sexism (prejudice or discrimination) in OP’s words or actions?
  • tarsinge 5y ago
    Is it if the trait is only learned as a defense mechanism, i.e. is a symptom and not natural?
  • pentae 5y ago
    The OP didn't state anywhere in his post that this was specific to women, just one particular individual who happened to be female. Generally when you label someone you require a justification for it rather than just a projection of your own world view
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  • oldnews193 5y ago
    Alternatively, what might be a display of a certain bias it's associating that vocal trait with young women in the first place. Isn't it akin to associating pink with gender? It's just a colour.
• jmcgough 5y ago
  There's definitely some sexism in how we in tech treat women as more junior if they talk like that. But I'm a woman and I'd love that kind of candid feedback from my manager. If I'm doing something that limits my career I want to know, regardless of what it is or if it's "fair". I absolutely think we should be having discussions about how women are treated and calling out bad behavior from companies, but from a selfish, personal perspective I worry that news reports like this are going to make managers less likely to give me useful feedback.
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  • arcticbull 5y ago
    There is definitely sexism in tech. No doubt. I've seen it, and I push back when I do. With that disclaimer out of the way, I would have serious concerns about a male employee with 'valley girl' rising terminals in meetings. According to Wikipedia [1] while there are differences between the way men and women 'valleyspeak' it does in fact apply to both. I would address both the same way, seeking to understand - in open dialogue - whether there was a basis in (lack of) confidence and trying to find ways to support them further in their career development. Maybe suggest public speaking classes, especially if available through work. [edit] further to [2] I found the way the feedback was communicated around the rising intonation friendly, positive and when addressed, the progress was kindly affirmed and remarked on. I saw no negativity in this. I did see someone who was indignant about receiving criticism, however, and took it to a level rarely seen in a professional setting. To call this the 'nuclear option' would be a bit of an understatement. Reading the back and forth documented in [2] is an absolute train wreck. Once I got a few pages in, I started to empathize deeply with Apple ER. That's not an easy job some days. One tweet the author posted said: > "... when #Apple just tried I said 'No thx, Mr Suicide Nets.' If you're going to create a nervous breakdown you get to watch it unfold in real time & now I'm on Twitter again." Referring to Tim Cook as 'Mr Suicide Nets' on Twitter seems like an insta-fire. That's one spicy meatball of a tweet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_girl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_girl [2] https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
• lnxg33k1 5y ago
  I think this kind of stupid women who try to exploit the system hiding their limits behind the sexist blackmail is damaging for all the women, i would rather not hire one if i risk not being able to express Amy feedback
  • fnord77 5y ago
    you will end up not having a choice. HR at my company dictates that the next n hires must be female.
    • lnxg33k1 5y ago
      I would rather change company than being part of the PR processes of today's corporations, I've worked at some big company in the past but for the last 2-3 years I've found my happiness in companies who don't treat political matter as public relations, also because they're so small to cause any noticeable noise Am not talking about places with an approach like Coinbase, I'm talking about favouring exchange of ideas within people but not as a way to PR the company itself
      • fnord77 5y ago
        if you're a hiring manager making $400k at a bay area tech company, you'll most likely put up with it.
        • lnxg33k1 5y ago
          I am European, but also know myself quite well to assure you that money for me is not more important than ideals, mainly by experience
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• erklik 5y ago
  A male who gives advice to their female co worker or a female they're managing clearly doesn't understand the current cultural situation when any advice can be taken as sexism. Best to keep quiet and work around it rather than trying to give advice or better them. Why get cancelled for the rest of your career for someone else's benefit?
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  • op00to 5y ago
    I have never been accused of “sexism” despite the “risk” of working with women and men including giving advice to all genders. Maybe you should think about the “advice” you give and why you are so worried about getting “cancelled”.
    • erklik 5y ago
      > I have never been accused of “sexism” despite the “risk” of working with women and men including giving advice to all genders. Glad to hear it :). It's nice to know that things aren't that bad after all. > Maybe you should think about the “advice” you give and why you are so worried about getting “cancelled”. Fair enough. The advice given to the OP was "when closing sentences in presentations, you finish the sentence in a way that sounds like you're asking a question. Something to pay attention to going forward". [1] The boss than later provided feedback when she improved that in her presentations by saying "you did great. I didn't hear you going up an octave at the end of your statements, came across as much more authoritative, it's super refreshing to provide feedback and then see you attempt to act upon it." In general, I don't really see that as sexist at all. However, the person getting that advice said "This #tonepolicing is totally okay feedback to get from my #bigtech #male leaders and not #sexist". At this point, considering that anything seems to be able to be taken as "sexist". Maybe it's better to keep your mouth shut when giving feedback to females. Again, Why risk your entire career for one person? That's my logic at least. I hope that doesn't mean I am sexist. 1. https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
• benjaminjosephw 5y ago
  I get your concern but is it possible that your idea of confidence is shaped by a male perspective on how that trait manifests? Encouraging a junior team member to have more self-assurance in their presentation style is one thing but routinely asking women to behave more like men is another. This same scenario could be seen either way depending on your perspective. To address sexism in the industry we need to be able to have a reasonable conversation about these kinds of subtle and subjective differences. There are grey areas and we won't all agree but resenting the challenge to think this through is probably not a response that's going to affect change.
  • breakfastduck 5y ago
    It's nothing to do with gender, there's plenty of men who suck at presentation and plenty who do the upwards inflection thing which is a sure fire way to destroy anyone's confidence in you.
  • csmpltn 5y ago
    > "To address sexism in the industry we need to be able to have a reasonable conversation about these kinds of subtle and subjective differences." This is about a single-sided, openly made accusation of sexism. Not an attempt at having a "reasonable conversation".
  • MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    Our idea of confidence is shaped by what successful men have found to work with other men. This isn't a social bias, this is economic survival of the fittest.
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• MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  A lot of women do not have experience working directly with men that they interpret normal criticism men would give each other as sexism.
  • burnished 5y ago
    I doubt this. Can you give an example?
    • MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      Blizzard and Rockstar for example. Men interact with women on a way different basis. Men might be gross at the place but I'd like to see if any of them attempted to assimilate as opposed to thinking they could be an individual and participate.
      • burnished 5y ago
        I'm a little confused, I thought you were talking about normal male interaction, but then your examples are two of the most recent incredibly dysfunctional corporate environments. What does the second half of your statement mean? If who assimilated, and into what? Sorry, I feel like I'm missing some context you're relying on here.
        • MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
          If you walk into a lions den, you pretend to be a lion. You don't complain that it's not a birds nest. Meaning women do not know what it is they're getting into. The ones that are successful rarely if at all cite sexism until well after their career has been established. Before you take this as me being some moron that thinks all women are stupid, they're not. I've had plenty of women managers that knew their shit and ran their part of the company really well. It's the naive women (who aren't driven by money) that tend to fall into the trap of anything remotely corrective of their action by a man is interpreted as sexism or an affront.
• jasonhansel 5y ago
  It seems like this could have been an opportunity for you to learn how to take people seriously and to accept them as having authority regardless of how they speak--a useful thing to learn if, for instance, you ever manage someone with a speech impediment, who might never be able to talk in a way that you prefer.
  • sunshinekitty 5y ago
    From the post it seems they did take that person seriously, and so worked to build confidence which is certainly a good thing to have. What do you propose to make this person more effective in meetings, rather than build confidence? Not everyone in the meetings will be so understanding, either consciously or subconsciously.
• softwaredoug 5y ago
  My understanding this is a recent spoken language innovation. I’m not sure if it’s gendered, but it’s very common. I would never correct it, I think it’s fairly engrained https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal EDIT: from the wiki article > Because HRT has been popularized as "Valley Girl Speak", it has acquired an almost exclusively feminine gender connotation. Studies confirm that more women use HRT than men.[18] Linguist Thomas J. Linneman contends, "The more successful a man is, the less likely he is to use HRT; the more successful a woman is, the more likely she is to use uptalk".
  • 58x14 5y ago
    On the opposite end of the spectrum, Elizabeth Holmes allegedly used a simple technique and it seemed to work. https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-deep-voice-2019-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-founder-elizabeth-h...