7 ms·

We just did a 1,500 mile round-trip journey to visit family. Because of the Tesla stuff, I was casually aware of roadside emergency vehicles moreso than usual.

by brk 5y ago

We just did a 1,500 mile round-trip journey to visit family. Because of the Tesla stuff, I was casually aware of roadside emergency vehicles moreso than usual. We passed 28 police/fire/emergency vehicles that were next to our travel lane. I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. By this point, there must be 1M+ incidents of Tesla vehicles passing roadside emergency vehicles in an adjacent lane. 12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases. IMO, it is good that there is federal investigation into this. My main concern is that is seems our government agencies at large are not very good when it comes to properly understanding anything technology related, or making relevant decisions/rulings/etc. on these kinds of things.

fallingknife 5y ago
> IMO, it is good that there is federal investigation into this > seems our government agencies at large are not very good when it comes to properly understanding anything technology related, or making relevant decisions/rulings/etc. on these kinds of things. Not sure how you think it's good then.
tw04 5y ago
>I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. How do you know all of them were on autopilot? >12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases. It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into, and an average attentive human driver is the absolute floor for self-driving on public roads unless Tesla is going to go to the lengths GM has to ensure the person behind the wheel is remaining attentive. >IMO, it is good that there is federal investigation into this. My main concern is that is seems our government agencies at large are not very good when it comes to properly understanding anything technology related, or making relevant decisions/rulings/etc. on these kinds of things. I think they're good at understanding if Tesla loses complete public confidence in self driving that is a net-loss for humanity and technology, as well as a prime source of political shitstorm when people ask why something wasn't done sooner.
- guhidalg 5y ago
  > It’s also 12 than any normal attentive human has gotten into Are you comparing a fleet of cars driving millions of miles to the performance of one ostensibly good driver? Ok, I guess we’ll need perfect systems, see you after the heat death of the universe.
  - yifanl 5y ago
    There's never going to be a perfect comparison when the same AI can drive every car in the fleet at the same time, whereas one human brain can drive at most one car at a time.
    - garyfirestorm 5y ago
      Yeah but the issue is at hand is specifically 12 cars. You can put 12 humans in cars and watch them brake before hitting emergency vehicles. If they’re claiming AI is better than humans then it’s important to understand why these 12 are so bad.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    I get this argument in abstract, but I don't think it's fair when we're talking about obviously unsafe behaviour that literally no human driver should ever do, except in cases of like, extreme medical distress. It's about the unknown unknowns. If you have Teslas slamming into stopped emergency vehicles with their lights on, and you don't know why, what else don't we know about their ability to perceive and reason about the world that they're navigating in?
    - kook_throwaway 5y ago
      Humans should never do it, but I'd be surprised if it happened less than once a week.
      - mikepurvis 5y ago
        Really? Not steering into a stopped, highly visible emergency vehicle with its lights on? Humans do a lot of dumb, irresponsible things on the road, but this is not one of them.
yardie 5y ago
I'm sorry but the general computer called your brain is not like the purposebuilt computer of Autopilot. 12 is too many for a computer who's only job is to literally look at the road and drive.
- wyager 5y ago
  The standard should probably be “better than human”, not “perfect”.
  - yardie 5y ago
    Maneuvering around congested streets I agree is a judgement call that humans and computers can get wrong. Not hitting stationary objects doesn't take a supercomputer to solve it.
    - thrill 5y ago
      Unless it does.
- lol1lol 5y ago
  lol you don't know what you are talking about.
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  The NHTSA has been very unclear about how many of these were on autopilot vs cruise control.
- CultMember001 5y ago
  I believe that Autopilot and Full Self Driving is perfectly safe. Where is the evidence to the contrary? I am willing to pay $5000/month/car for Full Self Driving.
tablespoon 5y ago
> By this point, there must be 1M+ incidents of Tesla vehicles passing roadside emergency vehicles in an adjacent lane. > 12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases. That perspective is little more than spin. Most serious flaws are like that. Any failure that isn't a "tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases" is pretty serious. If it was even a small percentage (say 0.01%), Tesla autopilot would be banned from the road, and maybe Elon Musk would go to jail (or at least Tesla would probably get bankrupted) for releasing such a hazardous product.

by brk 5y ago

fallingknife 5y ago

> IMO, it is good that there is federal investigation into this > seems our government agencies at large are not very good when it comes to properly understanding anything technology related, or making relevant decisions/rulings/etc. on these kinds of things. Not sure how you think it's good then.

tw04 5y ago

>I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. How do you know all of them were on autopilot? >12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases. It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into, and an average attentive human driver is the absolute floor for self-driving on public roads unless Tesla is going to go to the lengths GM has to ensure the person behind the wheel is remaining attentive. >IMO, it is good that there is federal investigation into this. My main concern is that is seems our government agencies at large are not very good when it comes to properly understanding anything technology related, or making relevant decisions/rulings/etc. on these kinds of things. I think they're good at understanding if Tesla loses complete public confidence in self driving that is a net-loss for humanity and technology, as well as a prime source of political shitstorm when people ask why something wasn't done sooner.

guhidalg 5y ago
> It’s also 12 than any normal attentive human has gotten into Are you comparing a fleet of cars driving millions of miles to the performance of one ostensibly good driver? Ok, I guess we’ll need perfect systems, see you after the heat death of the universe.
- yifanl 5y ago
  There's never going to be a perfect comparison when the same AI can drive every car in the fleet at the same time, whereas one human brain can drive at most one car at a time.
  - garyfirestorm 5y ago
    Yeah but the issue is at hand is specifically 12 cars. You can put 12 humans in cars and watch them brake before hitting emergency vehicles. If they’re claiming AI is better than humans then it’s important to understand why these 12 are so bad.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  I get this argument in abstract, but I don't think it's fair when we're talking about obviously unsafe behaviour that literally no human driver should ever do, except in cases of like, extreme medical distress. It's about the unknown unknowns. If you have Teslas slamming into stopped emergency vehicles with their lights on, and you don't know why, what else don't we know about their ability to perceive and reason about the world that they're navigating in?
  - kook_throwaway 5y ago
    Humans should never do it, but I'd be surprised if it happened less than once a week.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Really? Not steering into a stopped, highly visible emergency vehicle with its lights on? Humans do a lot of dumb, irresponsible things on the road, but this is not one of them.

yardie 5y ago

I'm sorry but the general computer called your brain is not like the purposebuilt computer of Autopilot. 12 is too many for a computer who's only job is to literally look at the road and drive.

wyager 5y ago
The standard should probably be “better than human”, not “perfect”.
- yardie 5y ago
  Maneuvering around congested streets I agree is a judgement call that humans and computers can get wrong. Not hitting stationary objects doesn't take a supercomputer to solve it.
  - thrill 5y ago
    Unless it does.
lol1lol 5y ago
lol you don't know what you are talking about.
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
The NHTSA has been very unclear about how many of these were on autopilot vs cruise control.
CultMember001 5y ago
I believe that Autopilot and Full Self Driving is perfectly safe. Where is the evidence to the contrary? I am willing to pay $5000/month/car for Full Self Driving.

tablespoon 5y ago

> By this point, there must be 1M+ incidents of Tesla vehicles passing roadside emergency vehicles in an adjacent lane. > 12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases. That perspective is little more than spin. Most serious flaws are like that. Any failure that isn't a "tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases" is pretty serious. If it was even a small percentage (say 0.01%), Tesla autopilot would be banned from the road, and maybe Elon Musk would go to jail (or at least Tesla would probably get bankrupted) for releasing such a hazardous product.