5 ms·

Because, as brexit proves, the EU was designed so you couldn't easily leave.

by Chris2048 5y ago

Hamuko 5y ago
It wasn't the leaving part that was difficult. It was the UK making up its mind on how it wanted to leave that was the difficult part.
- earnubs 5y ago
  The UK wanted to leave as an intact entity, the EU made that difficult, therefore compromises.
  - messe 5y ago
    The UK would have had to breach or at least seriously jeopardize the GFA to do so. An agreement they willingly signed up to. The UK brought that upon themselves.
    - earnubs 5y ago
      This is, probably unwittingly, making my point. Brexit in no way breaches the GFA. Threatening a return to violence in Ireland over Brexit is what I mean by "making things difficult". The Troubles were not about sausage shipments between Belfast and Dublin. :)
      - CaptainZapp 5y ago
        England just have to live up to their obligations and accept a sea border between England and Northern Ireland. In fact, they signed up for exactly that not even 2 years ago. It seems, though, that they were just kicking the can down the road and never really had intentions to live up to their side of the deal. Global Britain! Yeah, right...
      - messe 5y ago
        Brexit doesn't, but the GFA was only possible because of the seamless border between the two countries. That lack-of-a-border can only exist if NI remains in the customs union. The rUK can only have a seamless border with NI if it's either in the customs union, or neither are. The UK decided the rUK didn't want to be in it. So now there's a border in the Irish sea. > Threatening a return to violence in Ireland over Brexit is what I mean by "making things difficult". Recognizing that putting in jeopardy an international agreement that brought an end to the troubles might incite violence, is not the same thing as threatening violence. It's common sense. > The Troubles were not about sausage shipments between Belfast and Dublin. You're right, they were an ethno-nationalist conflict, during which the British government sanctioned the murder of its own citizens, and now continues to protect those murderers from prosecution.
        earnubs 5y ago
        > You're right, they were an ethno-nationalist conflict, during which the British government sanctioned the murder of its own citizens, and now continues to protect those murderers from prosecution. Bit early for the drink, no?
        messe 5y ago
        No need for an ad hominem. Which part of that sentence do you take issue with?
  - earnubs 5y ago
    HN won't let me reply to you messe! Can you point to the line or lines in the GFA which would have been breached by Brexit?
    - orwin 5y ago
      Instauring a border between Ulster and Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_and_the_Irish_border#Good_Friday_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_and_the_Irish_border#Go...
      - earnubs 5y ago
        What's Ulster got to do with it? I asked for a reference in the GFA, you've provided a Wikipedia link. Fantasy stuff in the HN comment threads as usual.
        messe 5y ago
        You're being intentionally obtuse now. If you can't see why an open border is vital for the continued peace, and why removing it would place tension on a peace that took decades to achieve, then you've already made up your mind. I suppose I should have expected it when you blamed the EU for the self-inflicted woes of Brexit.
        earnubs 5y ago
        I'm not in any way slow to understand, not in this case anyway. > If you can't see why an open border is vital for the continued peace, and why removing it would place tension on a peace that took decades to achieve, then you've already made up your mind. I didn't say that, and I'm not even going to engage your straw man. And I did not blame the EU for Brexit woes, I made a pretty basic statement of fact that would probably cover any negotiation, one which was intended only to signal compromise -- hence why the UK did not leave entirely -- not woe or blame.
      - inamorty 5y ago
        Ulster is not synonymous with Northern Ireland as counties Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan are very much part of Ireland.
  - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
    The UK wanted to leave the EU and the common market. That means a border. That much has always been clear. That's basically the whole point of the common market. The UK also doesn't want a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland but that's stricly an issue between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. Obviously as Ireland is a member and the EU is a constructive and diplomatically open entity, it was more than ready to negociate. Actually, multiple solutions have been proposed and at least one was tentivaly accepted before being reneged by the UK government. I mean at some point in a negociation if the weak party can't come to its sense, you have to stop wasting everyone's time and tell them to get lost which is more or less what's happening with the UK.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  It's untrue to characterise the UK as a contradictory single-entity unable to "mak[e] up its mind" - in reality the UK was itself very much divided.
dTal 5y ago
Can you be more specific? As far as I can tell, the difficulties with Brexit are entirely self-inflicted, as a consequence of poor planning and self-contradictory goals.
CaptainZapp 5y ago
Why? The UK sent a letter invoking article 50 and after an extension they're out. The UK is a third country and no more an EU member. Leaving is very simple if you're willing to face the consequences. And this is the true problem of the UKs exit. That they're neither willing to face the truth nor the fact that's it a third country now with all restrictions that come with that status.
- earnubs 5y ago
  GB is a third country, UK is not entirely.
  - CaptainZapp 5y ago
    Which part of the UK is not out? Ireland, as far as I know, is not part of the UK. While Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England are all out. Which part of the UK is still in the EU? (Honestly curious)
    - Hamuko 5y ago
      Northern Ireland is still abiding by EU free movement of goods rules and EU Customs Union rules, and goods from the rest of the UK are inspected when they get to Northern Ireland.
    - messe 5y ago
      From a trade perspective, Northern Ireland is treated as part of the EU at the moment. This allows the Irish border to remain open, as there's no feasible way of enforcing it otherwise. For some context: The European union as a whole has 137 border crossings with third countries to its east. The Irish-Northern Irish border has 275.
      - CaptainZapp 5y ago
        Thanks! I didn't consider NEs current status. This will open another can of worms, when some of the exceptions run out by the end of September.

Because, as brexit proves, the EU was designed so you couldn't easily leave.

It wasn't the leaving part that was difficult. It was the UK making up its mind on how it wanted to leave that was the difficult part.

earnubs 5y ago
The UK wanted to leave as an intact entity, the EU made that difficult, therefore compromises.
- messe 5y ago
  The UK would have had to breach or at least seriously jeopardize the GFA to do so. An agreement they willingly signed up to. The UK brought that upon themselves.
  - earnubs 5y ago
    This is, probably unwittingly, making my point. Brexit in no way breaches the GFA. Threatening a return to violence in Ireland over Brexit is what I mean by "making things difficult". The Troubles were not about sausage shipments between Belfast and Dublin. :)
    - CaptainZapp 5y ago
      England just have to live up to their obligations and accept a sea border between England and Northern Ireland. In fact, they signed up for exactly that not even 2 years ago. It seems, though, that they were just kicking the can down the road and never really had intentions to live up to their side of the deal. Global Britain! Yeah, right...
    - messe 5y ago
      Brexit doesn't, but the GFA was only possible because of the seamless border between the two countries. That lack-of-a-border can only exist if NI remains in the customs union. The rUK can only have a seamless border with NI if it's either in the customs union, or neither are. The UK decided the rUK didn't want to be in it. So now there's a border in the Irish sea. > Threatening a return to violence in Ireland over Brexit is what I mean by "making things difficult". Recognizing that putting in jeopardy an international agreement that brought an end to the troubles might incite violence, is not the same thing as threatening violence. It's common sense. > The Troubles were not about sausage shipments between Belfast and Dublin. You're right, they were an ethno-nationalist conflict, during which the British government sanctioned the murder of its own citizens, and now continues to protect those murderers from prosecution.
      - earnubs 5y ago
        > You're right, they were an ethno-nationalist conflict, during which the British government sanctioned the murder of its own citizens, and now continues to protect those murderers from prosecution. Bit early for the drink, no?
        messe 5y ago
        No need for an ad hominem. Which part of that sentence do you take issue with?
- earnubs 5y ago
  HN won't let me reply to you messe! Can you point to the line or lines in the GFA which would have been breached by Brexit?
  - orwin 5y ago
    Instauring a border between Ulster and Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_and_the_Irish_border#Good_Friday_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_and_the_Irish_border#Go...
    - earnubs 5y ago
      What's Ulster got to do with it? I asked for a reference in the GFA, you've provided a Wikipedia link. Fantasy stuff in the HN comment threads as usual.
      - messe 5y ago
        You're being intentionally obtuse now. If you can't see why an open border is vital for the continued peace, and why removing it would place tension on a peace that took decades to achieve, then you've already made up your mind. I suppose I should have expected it when you blamed the EU for the self-inflicted woes of Brexit.
        earnubs 5y ago
        I'm not in any way slow to understand, not in this case anyway. > If you can't see why an open border is vital for the continued peace, and why removing it would place tension on a peace that took decades to achieve, then you've already made up your mind. I didn't say that, and I'm not even going to engage your straw man. And I did not blame the EU for Brexit woes, I made a pretty basic statement of fact that would probably cover any negotiation, one which was intended only to signal compromise -- hence why the UK did not leave entirely -- not woe or blame.
    - inamorty 5y ago
      Ulster is not synonymous with Northern Ireland as counties Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan are very much part of Ireland.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  The UK wanted to leave the EU and the common market. That means a border. That much has always been clear. That's basically the whole point of the common market. The UK also doesn't want a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland but that's stricly an issue between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. Obviously as Ireland is a member and the EU is a constructive and diplomatically open entity, it was more than ready to negociate. Actually, multiple solutions have been proposed and at least one was tentivaly accepted before being reneged by the UK government. I mean at some point in a negociation if the weak party can't come to its sense, you have to stop wasting everyone's time and tell them to get lost which is more or less what's happening with the UK.
Chris2048 5y ago
It's untrue to characterise the UK as a contradictory single-entity unable to "mak[e] up its mind" - in reality the UK was itself very much divided.

dTal 5y ago

Can you be more specific? As far as I can tell, the difficulties with Brexit are entirely self-inflicted, as a consequence of poor planning and self-contradictory goals.

CaptainZapp 5y ago

Why? The UK sent a letter invoking article 50 and after an extension they're out. The UK is a third country and no more an EU member. Leaving is very simple if you're willing to face the consequences. And this is the true problem of the UKs exit. That they're neither willing to face the truth nor the fact that's it a third country now with all restrictions that come with that status.

earnubs 5y ago
GB is a third country, UK is not entirely.
- CaptainZapp 5y ago
  Which part of the UK is not out? Ireland, as far as I know, is not part of the UK. While Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England are all out. Which part of the UK is still in the EU? (Honestly curious)
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    Northern Ireland is still abiding by EU free movement of goods rules and EU Customs Union rules, and goods from the rest of the UK are inspected when they get to Northern Ireland.
  - messe 5y ago
    From a trade perspective, Northern Ireland is treated as part of the EU at the moment. This allows the Irish border to remain open, as there's no feasible way of enforcing it otherwise. For some context: The European union as a whole has 137 border crossings with third countries to its east. The Irish-Northern Irish border has 275.
    - CaptainZapp 5y ago
      Thanks! I didn't consider NEs current status. This will open another can of worms, when some of the exceptions run out by the end of September.