6 ms·

A few years ago, I made a new year's resolution to be more forgiving to myself. At the time, I would feel miserable at the end of the day for, say, not doing la

A few years ago, I made a new year's resolution to be more forgiving to myself. At the time, I would feel miserable at the end of the day for, say, not doing laundry even though I had resolved to do so. I would downright hate myself for not getting this simple task done despite having had the time. So, that year, whenever I would have such a thought, I'd tell myself that I forgive my past self. "It's ok!" And it has been extremely effective! I don't think I procrastinate less (or more) on laundry nowadays, but I can't remember the last time I went to bed feeling terrible about myself. It almost feels absurd to me now to think about, but it's actually been life-changing. And it required no money, no explicit commitment, no lifestyle changes, no time taken out of every day. Just a small but persistent voice objecting to the self-loathing. Downsides might include being overall more apathetic and possibly less motivated - but that might also be an illusion. I don't know, it's hard to compare to beforehand, and I don't think terrorizing yourself is particularly effective in the first place. But even if I had to choose, I would definitely pick "slightly less productive" over "self-hatred". People say to love/respect yourself. Not hating yourself is a pretty foundational step in that :)

sharkjacobs 5y ago
When I punish myself I find I shrink or cringe away from the subject of concern, rather than motivated to engage with it Depression is the greatest enemy of doing anything, feeling bad is basically always a net negative on productivity
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I identify strongly with this. I’m overall functional, even reasonably successful, in work. But in work and even more strongly in personal matters, I can shrink away from unpleasant items well past the point of it being reasonable. I’ve literally wasted dozens of hours avoiding a task that ends up taking 15 minutes. Could be a phone call, dealing with some minor tax or DMV issue, writing a simple but important email, or whatever. Often paperwork or tedious phone call related, but it’s clearly not productive behavior.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
But if you don’t mind me asking—what happens when you, well, don’t have the laundry done, and you realize you actually really need a clean shirt? (Or whatever.)
- xmprt 5y ago
  I think this approach only works if you're already too hard on yourself. If you live like a slob and tell yourself to continue living like a slob then it's not going to help you much.
  - b3morales 5y ago
    You can alternatively decide that despite the fact that you "live like a slob" you are sufficiently happy, healthy, and productive. And that the standard that says "this is slobbery" (which comes from projecting an external viewpoint) is not relevant to you, so you can ignore it. (You can also substitute any X, where X is not harmful behavior, for "slobbery".)
- galangalalgol 5y ago
  speaking as a procrastinator. I wear a dirty shirt (or whatever). And no one cares, or probably notices, and the world doesn't implode.
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    Does it stop at not doing the laundry “or whatever”? Or does your procrastination sneak into other aspects of your life?
    - galangalalgol 5y ago
      Pretty much everything. It sometimes causes mild annoyance to people, or forces me to drop everything to get something done. But as a wise man told me "if you wait until the last minute, it only takes a minute.".
  - 5y ago
jodrellblank 5y ago
This is the basis of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT); hating oneself or forgiving oneself are behaviours of the mind (cognition), and the idea is that we can fall into negative behaviours and get stuck there, and can learn positive behaviours instead. A realted sticking point is when we can't learn positive beahviours, because we don't want to give up the negative ones - e.g. "I deserve to hate myself for not doing the laundry, only a disgusting slob does no laundry and is happy about it, at least I have the virtue of self-hate" and then changing involves debugging why that behaviour is stuck and unsticking it. Ten common cognitive distortions that lead to self loathing, anxiety, depression, and others are described here: https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-cognitive-distortions-identified-in-cbt-22412 https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-cognitive-distortions-ident... Dr Burns' podcast talking through all the techniques he's developed for identifying and changing and overcoming these is here: https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/ https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/ he also has a new book out, and charges therapists for using his materials, but the podcast is entirely free. I think Dr Burns' development of techniques to unstick the "I want to change but I don't deserve to change" predicament is something which could help lots of internet people who are depressed, anxious, miserable, self-loathing, and lots of people who have been going to therapists for years talking over issues but unable to change them, and is something that overlaps with what people want from meditation and from gurus like Eckhart Tolle, but is much more practical with techniques you can try (probably with a therapist, but maybe alone) and confirm whether they worked not in minutes rather than years.
- spython 5y ago
  Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT), as a further development of CBT, seems to be even better geared towards forgiveness, acceptance and commitment to the goals you actually deeply care about. (Haven't tried it personally though) A great overview here: https://www.metafilter.com/182938/We-Hurt-Where-We-Care https://www.metafilter.com/182938/We-Hurt-Where-We-Care
  - SamPatt 5y ago
    I can recommended ACT for folks with depression largely stemming from life situations (as opposed to clear medical issues). The death of my parents (among other life events) has been difficult for me and ACT has helped.
azundo 5y ago
I had a similar realization after reading Radical Compassion by Tara Brach. The concept of the two darts of suffering in Buddhism has also been extremely valuable to me. The first dart is the immediate pain (laundry didn't get done) and the second dart is the self-inflicted pain caused by the stories we tell to ourselves ("I can't even get a simple load of laundry done, I am a terrible person who will never accomplish anything.") It's usually the second dart that causes the most suffering despite being entirely created in our own heads and self inflicted.
- mlloydw 5y ago
  Thank you for this reference - it's taken me on a lovely journey of reading!
- dtech 5y ago
  Counter-acting this negative train of thought is a goal of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for depression, and it's very successful. But also way more expensive than pills.
  - iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
    I had an interesting experience with this a few years ago when I went through some pretty bad depression and anxiety. My first step of getting better was rejecting the bad feelings saying to myself "These feelings don't make sense. Stop feeling them" and that made me feel a bit better. But to really improve I had to make the realization that the feelings are a part of myself even if I don't want them to be, and that I can do better even if I don't feel good.
  - shantnutiwari 5y ago
    >>goal of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for depression, and it's very successful. But also way more expensive than pills. short term, maybe, but I bet its cheaper long term :)
- dgb23 5y ago
  My personal mantra is (roughly): Be forgiving with your past, disciplined with your present, hopeful with your future. I'm not a Buddhist or religious at all for that matter. But I've come to appreciate the power of rituals, prayer, meditation and spirituality in some sense. In the Sermon of the Mount it is said that sin starts in the mind (very roughly paraphrasing). In Buddhism there is the concept of planting seeds, karma, with our thoughts and actions. I understand these things as powerful concepts, packaged as stories and metaphors. They can help us to face difficult emotional challenges (fear, hatred, pride etc.) in two ways: By preparing our minds through a form of mental hygiene and by drawing from fantastic/spiritual frameworks in overwhelming situations. So the mantra above is a way for me to operationalise a kind of healthy self-reflection (I tend to over-reflect) and put different types of thoughts and motivations into context. It helps!
rejectedandsad 5y ago
The problem Is I see reminders to my failures constantly (I have mint.com open on one of my monitors). I can’t easily escape being an abject failure because of my lack of social class and status.
- stank345 5y ago
  It sounds like you are being unfair to yourself, perhaps brutally so. Would you consider others of your social class and status abject failures?
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  That’s why people do things like religion—it gives you a way to establish purpose and meaning that is independent of your economic standing or potential.
- fragmede 5y ago
  That sounds deeply painful. Why choose to keep a constant reminder up? If you're lucky you'll be able to forget about it for a brief instant but it sounds like you have intrusive thoughts that won't let you forget. There's medication for that, among other things, if you so choose.
- dgb23 5y ago
  Recognizing failure is a good thing. Now it really depends how we see failure. I like to see it as opportunity to grow. The worrying thing here is that you associate a specific failure with your being: "being an abject failure". Ridiculous! You know better. Class and status are just smoke and mirrors. I sincerely hope you realize that you are not defined by the numbers on some website, will face your challenge head on, grow stronger on every step and most importantly recognize that you are not alone with this.
emersonrsantos 5y ago
Be good to yourself, this is the true antidepressant.
yazaddaruvala 5y ago
> Downsides might include being overall more apathetic and possibly less motivated (but that might also be an illusion FWIW, Sidartha might say “You’ve given up frivolities and potentially closer to giving up desire. You’re one step closer to enlightenment.” The symptoms of enlightenment (“a positive”) are the same as apathy and lacking motivation (“a negative”). Everything is a matter of framing :). I’m glad you’ve chosen a mental model that frames your imperfections as learning opportunities rather than justification for self-punishment.
crazygringo 5y ago
Yup. One of the most eye-opening perspectives for me was to ask myself -- how would I judge a friend if it were them rather than me? In this case, if a friend didn't do their laundry that day? Suddenly I realized I was holding myself to a standard 10x what I was expecting of anyone else. And stopping that was life-changing. It just took deciding to treat myself as kindly as I treat others. Just like you -- I still get basically the same amount of stuff done, or maybe 90% of before -- but stop feeling horribly guilty about myself all the time. And if I lost 10%, it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

sharkjacobs 5y ago

When I punish myself I find I shrink or cringe away from the subject of concern, rather than motivated to engage with it Depression is the greatest enemy of doing anything, feeling bad is basically always a net negative on productivity

sokoloff 5y ago
I identify strongly with this. I’m overall functional, even reasonably successful, in work. But in work and even more strongly in personal matters, I can shrink away from unpleasant items well past the point of it being reasonable. I’ve literally wasted dozens of hours avoiding a task that ends up taking 15 minutes. Could be a phone call, dealing with some minor tax or DMV issue, writing a simple but important email, or whatever. Often paperwork or tedious phone call related, but it’s clearly not productive behavior.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

But if you don’t mind me asking—what happens when you, well, don’t have the laundry done, and you realize you actually really need a clean shirt? (Or whatever.)

xmprt 5y ago
I think this approach only works if you're already too hard on yourself. If you live like a slob and tell yourself to continue living like a slob then it's not going to help you much.
- b3morales 5y ago
  You can alternatively decide that despite the fact that you "live like a slob" you are sufficiently happy, healthy, and productive. And that the standard that says "this is slobbery" (which comes from projecting an external viewpoint) is not relevant to you, so you can ignore it. (You can also substitute any X, where X is not harmful behavior, for "slobbery".)
galangalalgol 5y ago
speaking as a procrastinator. I wear a dirty shirt (or whatever). And no one cares, or probably notices, and the world doesn't implode.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  Does it stop at not doing the laundry “or whatever”? Or does your procrastination sneak into other aspects of your life?
  - galangalalgol 5y ago
    Pretty much everything. It sometimes causes mild annoyance to people, or forces me to drop everything to get something done. But as a wise man told me "if you wait until the last minute, it only takes a minute.".
- 5y ago

jodrellblank 5y ago

This is the basis of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT); hating oneself or forgiving oneself are behaviours of the mind (cognition), and the idea is that we can fall into negative behaviours and get stuck there, and can learn positive behaviours instead. A realted sticking point is when we can't learn positive beahviours, because we don't want to give up the negative ones - e.g. "I deserve to hate myself for not doing the laundry, only a disgusting slob does no laundry and is happy about it, at least I have the virtue of self-hate" and then changing involves debugging why that behaviour is stuck and unsticking it. Ten common cognitive distortions that lead to self loathing, anxiety, depression, and others are described here: https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-cognitive-distortions-identified-in-cbt-22412 https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-cognitive-distortions-ident... Dr Burns' podcast talking through all the techniques he's developed for identifying and changing and overcoming these is here: https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/ https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/ he also has a new book out, and charges therapists for using his materials, but the podcast is entirely free. I think Dr Burns' development of techniques to unstick the "I want to change but I don't deserve to change" predicament is something which could help lots of internet people who are depressed, anxious, miserable, self-loathing, and lots of people who have been going to therapists for years talking over issues but unable to change them, and is something that overlaps with what people want from meditation and from gurus like Eckhart Tolle, but is much more practical with techniques you can try (probably with a therapist, but maybe alone) and confirm whether they worked not in minutes rather than years.

spython 5y ago
Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT), as a further development of CBT, seems to be even better geared towards forgiveness, acceptance and commitment to the goals you actually deeply care about. (Haven't tried it personally though) A great overview here: https://www.metafilter.com/182938/We-Hurt-Where-We-Care https://www.metafilter.com/182938/We-Hurt-Where-We-Care
- SamPatt 5y ago
  I can recommended ACT for folks with depression largely stemming from life situations (as opposed to clear medical issues). The death of my parents (among other life events) has been difficult for me and ACT has helped.

azundo 5y ago

I had a similar realization after reading Radical Compassion by Tara Brach. The concept of the two darts of suffering in Buddhism has also been extremely valuable to me. The first dart is the immediate pain (laundry didn't get done) and the second dart is the self-inflicted pain caused by the stories we tell to ourselves ("I can't even get a simple load of laundry done, I am a terrible person who will never accomplish anything.") It's usually the second dart that causes the most suffering despite being entirely created in our own heads and self inflicted.

mlloydw 5y ago
Thank you for this reference - it's taken me on a lovely journey of reading!
dtech 5y ago
Counter-acting this negative train of thought is a goal of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for depression, and it's very successful. But also way more expensive than pills.
- iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
  I had an interesting experience with this a few years ago when I went through some pretty bad depression and anxiety. My first step of getting better was rejecting the bad feelings saying to myself "These feelings don't make sense. Stop feeling them" and that made me feel a bit better. But to really improve I had to make the realization that the feelings are a part of myself even if I don't want them to be, and that I can do better even if I don't feel good.
- shantnutiwari 5y ago
  >>goal of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for depression, and it's very successful. But also way more expensive than pills. short term, maybe, but I bet its cheaper long term :)
dgb23 5y ago
My personal mantra is (roughly): Be forgiving with your past, disciplined with your present, hopeful with your future. I'm not a Buddhist or religious at all for that matter. But I've come to appreciate the power of rituals, prayer, meditation and spirituality in some sense. In the Sermon of the Mount it is said that sin starts in the mind (very roughly paraphrasing). In Buddhism there is the concept of planting seeds, karma, with our thoughts and actions. I understand these things as powerful concepts, packaged as stories and metaphors. They can help us to face difficult emotional challenges (fear, hatred, pride etc.) in two ways: By preparing our minds through a form of mental hygiene and by drawing from fantastic/spiritual frameworks in overwhelming situations. So the mantra above is a way for me to operationalise a kind of healthy self-reflection (I tend to over-reflect) and put different types of thoughts and motivations into context. It helps!

rejectedandsad 5y ago

The problem Is I see reminders to my failures constantly (I have mint.com open on one of my monitors). I can’t easily escape being an abject failure because of my lack of social class and status.

stank345 5y ago
It sounds like you are being unfair to yourself, perhaps brutally so. Would you consider others of your social class and status abject failures?
jkhdigital 5y ago
That’s why people do things like religion—it gives you a way to establish purpose and meaning that is independent of your economic standing or potential.
fragmede 5y ago
That sounds deeply painful. Why choose to keep a constant reminder up? If you're lucky you'll be able to forget about it for a brief instant but it sounds like you have intrusive thoughts that won't let you forget. There's medication for that, among other things, if you so choose.
dgb23 5y ago
Recognizing failure is a good thing. Now it really depends how we see failure. I like to see it as opportunity to grow. The worrying thing here is that you associate a specific failure with your being: "being an abject failure". Ridiculous! You know better. Class and status are just smoke and mirrors. I sincerely hope you realize that you are not defined by the numbers on some website, will face your challenge head on, grow stronger on every step and most importantly recognize that you are not alone with this.

emersonrsantos 5y ago

Be good to yourself, this is the true antidepressant.

yazaddaruvala 5y ago

> Downsides might include being overall more apathetic and possibly less motivated (but that might also be an illusion FWIW, Sidartha might say “You’ve given up frivolities and potentially closer to giving up desire. You’re one step closer to enlightenment.” The symptoms of enlightenment (“a positive”) are the same as apathy and lacking motivation (“a negative”). Everything is a matter of framing :). I’m glad you’ve chosen a mental model that frames your imperfections as learning opportunities rather than justification for self-punishment.

crazygringo 5y ago

Yup. One of the most eye-opening perspectives for me was to ask myself -- how would I judge a friend if it were them rather than me? In this case, if a friend didn't do their laundry that day? Suddenly I realized I was holding myself to a standard 10x what I was expecting of anyone else. And stopping that was life-changing. It just took deciding to treat myself as kindly as I treat others. Just like you -- I still get basically the same amount of stuff done, or maybe 90% of before -- but stop feeling horribly guilty about myself all the time. And if I lost 10%, it's a worthwhile tradeoff.