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In fairness, I think it's been just as frustrating to the health officials setting out those targets— between non-compliance with the initial guidelines (both d

In fairness, I think it's been just as frustrating to the health officials setting out those targets— between non-compliance with the initial guidelines (both due to idiocy, and due to governments dragging their heels on the income/rent supports that would have allowed poor people to actually stay home), and then the appearance of the delta variant just as vaccination campaigns were getting seriously under way, I'm sure it has very much felt like fighting a battle against moving goalposts.

JackFr 5y ago
> due to governments dragging their heels on the income/rent supports that would have allowed poor people to actually stay home Government supports or not, you do realize everyone can't stay home?
- Griffinsauce 5y ago
  Why do so many discussions around this have to devolve to reasoning against absolute straw-men arguments? The point wasn't for "everybody" to stay at home but to expand "everybody who can" to the highest possible number, by removing economic and other barriers.
  - linuxftw 5y ago
    Why do people act like a completely unreasonable plan (and plan is generous) created by the morons in charge was ever going to be followed, let alone work? Garbage in, garbage out.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, what do you suppose the decisions makers could have done in the moment that would have persuaded you and other contrarians that they had a plan worth following, or at least worth trying?
      - linuxftw 5y ago
        > could have done in the moment Which moment? The moment we invaded Afghanistan 20 years ago and racked up trillions in debt killing people over seas instead of investing in infrastructure? The moment when the Bush administration lied about WMD and the media just cheered the war on? The moment nursing home residents were left untreated in their rooms because the 'data' said you couldn't treat anybody with steroids? It's hard to pick a moment, because the 'science' has been junk from the jump. The bulk of 1st world governments are liars and criminals. Why would I believe a solitary thing they ever have to say?
      - _red 5y ago
        For me, it was when the Swedish approach was widely derided even though it was logically sound. (isolate the at-risk, everyone else get on with life and build herd immunity).
        mikepurvis 5y ago
        Interesting. I never thought it was logically sound, and my impression is that the the data has borne that out, basically all along (and that it was quite valuable to have Sweden and New Zealand as the two outlier examples for what it looked like to handle the pandemic especially poorly and especially well). A recent example with some hard numbers: "Sweden has recorded more COVID-19 cases per capita than most countries so far: Since the start of the pandemic, roughly 11 out of every 100 people in Sweden have been diagnosed with COVID-19, compared with 9.4 out of every 100 in the UK and 7.4 per 100 in Italy. Sweden has also recorded around 145 COVID-19 deaths for every 100,000 people — around three times more than Denmark, eight times more than Finland, and nearly 10 times more than Norway. Had Sweden implemented tighter rules, experts told Insider, the country might have seen a COVID-19 death toll more similar to those Nordic neighbors." https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-str...
        _red 5y ago
        >roughly 11 out of every 100 people in Sweden have been diagnosed with COVID-19, compared with 9.4 out of every 100 in the UK and 7.4 per 100 in Italy If the goal is to shoot for herd immunity, then you would need 40-60% of population to have antibodies. No way to get from A -> B without people 'catching it' At some point it needs to be accepted that Covid is now endemic and is 'never going away'. Trying to stave it off with leaky vaccines is like trying safeguard your 0-day with a leaky firewall. Logical and medically minded people should focus on developing and testing therapeutics to reduce the need for hospitalizations. Sadly that will require loss of profits to very large companies.
    - Griffinsauce 5y ago
      That wasn't the topic but thanks for sharing your feelings.
SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
I think we tend to under-acknowledge that the "return to normal" line is also a moving goalpost. I'm typing this comment out from a cross-country trip; when I return, I can eat in a restaurant or work from the office or even dance in a crowded nightclub if I want to. There's still mask mandates here and there, but I think there's a strong argument for the perspective that vaccines already did work and we already are back to normal in almost every way that government policy can achieve.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  It's not quite as lax for families with kids under 12, but broadly speaking, I agree with you. Some things are just never going to be completely as they were in February 2020— for example, I think there's far broader cultural awareness of factors like indoor air sharing, aerosols, hand sanitation, personal vaccine records, etc than probably at any other point in history. I expect that the lower-than-usual flu numbers from last winter will persist for some time as people continue to take care about these kind of things. And no one alive today will need to be reminded to get the malaria shot before going on safari— checking your vaccine status is permanently embedded in the current generation as travel-thing now, just like making sure you have your visa lined up and your insurance in order.

JackFr 5y ago

> due to governments dragging their heels on the income/rent supports that would have allowed poor people to actually stay home Government supports or not, you do realize everyone can't stay home?

Griffinsauce 5y ago
Why do so many discussions around this have to devolve to reasoning against absolute straw-men arguments? The point wasn't for "everybody" to stay at home but to expand "everybody who can" to the highest possible number, by removing economic and other barriers.
- linuxftw 5y ago
  Why do people act like a completely unreasonable plan (and plan is generous) created by the morons in charge was ever going to be followed, let alone work? Garbage in, garbage out.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, what do you suppose the decisions makers could have done in the moment that would have persuaded you and other contrarians that they had a plan worth following, or at least worth trying?
    - linuxftw 5y ago
      > could have done in the moment Which moment? The moment we invaded Afghanistan 20 years ago and racked up trillions in debt killing people over seas instead of investing in infrastructure? The moment when the Bush administration lied about WMD and the media just cheered the war on? The moment nursing home residents were left untreated in their rooms because the 'data' said you couldn't treat anybody with steroids? It's hard to pick a moment, because the 'science' has been junk from the jump. The bulk of 1st world governments are liars and criminals. Why would I believe a solitary thing they ever have to say?
    - _red 5y ago
      For me, it was when the Swedish approach was widely derided even though it was logically sound. (isolate the at-risk, everyone else get on with life and build herd immunity).
      - mikepurvis 5y ago
        Interesting. I never thought it was logically sound, and my impression is that the the data has borne that out, basically all along (and that it was quite valuable to have Sweden and New Zealand as the two outlier examples for what it looked like to handle the pandemic especially poorly and especially well). A recent example with some hard numbers: "Sweden has recorded more COVID-19 cases per capita than most countries so far: Since the start of the pandemic, roughly 11 out of every 100 people in Sweden have been diagnosed with COVID-19, compared with 9.4 out of every 100 in the UK and 7.4 per 100 in Italy. Sweden has also recorded around 145 COVID-19 deaths for every 100,000 people — around three times more than Denmark, eight times more than Finland, and nearly 10 times more than Norway. Had Sweden implemented tighter rules, experts told Insider, the country might have seen a COVID-19 death toll more similar to those Nordic neighbors." https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-str...
        _red 5y ago
        >roughly 11 out of every 100 people in Sweden have been diagnosed with COVID-19, compared with 9.4 out of every 100 in the UK and 7.4 per 100 in Italy If the goal is to shoot for herd immunity, then you would need 40-60% of population to have antibodies. No way to get from A -> B without people 'catching it' At some point it needs to be accepted that Covid is now endemic and is 'never going away'. Trying to stave it off with leaky vaccines is like trying safeguard your 0-day with a leaky firewall. Logical and medically minded people should focus on developing and testing therapeutics to reduce the need for hospitalizations. Sadly that will require loss of profits to very large companies.
  - Griffinsauce 5y ago
    That wasn't the topic but thanks for sharing your feelings.

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago

I think we tend to under-acknowledge that the "return to normal" line is also a moving goalpost. I'm typing this comment out from a cross-country trip; when I return, I can eat in a restaurant or work from the office or even dance in a crowded nightclub if I want to. There's still mask mandates here and there, but I think there's a strong argument for the perspective that vaccines already did work and we already are back to normal in almost every way that government policy can achieve.

mikepurvis 5y ago
It's not quite as lax for families with kids under 12, but broadly speaking, I agree with you. Some things are just never going to be completely as they were in February 2020— for example, I think there's far broader cultural awareness of factors like indoor air sharing, aerosols, hand sanitation, personal vaccine records, etc than probably at any other point in history. I expect that the lower-than-usual flu numbers from last winter will persist for some time as people continue to take care about these kind of things. And no one alive today will need to be reminded to get the malaria shot before going on safari— checking your vaccine status is permanently embedded in the current generation as travel-thing now, just like making sure you have your visa lined up and your insurance in order.