7 ms·

I Have Decided to Stop Supporting My Family's Non-Linux Devices

43 points by crecker 5y ago

rvz 5y ago
> But, my feeling is that many Linux distributions are now only slightly harder to use than MacOS or Windows. The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. They simply are not willing to spend the time to understand their need for privacy and good software. Nor are they willing to spend a few hours learning the basics of Linux. They will just Google it themselves on their Windows or MacOS machine, rather than installing whatever 'Linux' distro you want them to. Why waste time installing a 'Linux' distro when WSL exists and they can continue to use Windows but have a Linux ecosystem sitting in a VM. > If we wait much longer, we may lose Linux as a viable option. Exactly. it's called Fuchsia and it is going to replace Android and ChromeOS. Better hurry up then. > But, I can no longer help my friends and family members to get into bed with the big-tech python that is slowly unhinging its jaw in preparation for devouring them. If they choose to lie down, I can do nothing about it, but I can refuse to continue helping them into bed! Googling will help them instead and you don't need to 'install Linux' for that. So what is your point?
Festro 5y ago
> I have Decided to Stop Supporting My Family's Non-Linux Devices Oh dear, however will they recover from this? > I have no illusions that by writing this article I will be firing the first shot in the war of the nerds against big tech. Really? Ego much? Plenty of shots have been fired for decades. > I spend probably 2% or less of my computer time now in front of Windows computers. I use Zoom a little and rarely play two Windows PC games. Good for you, but don't hold others to that. If they use Windows 100% of the time then that's their choice. If you can't sell Linux on its benefits then I really doubt refusing to help your loved ones with Windows issues is going to change their minds. They'll just find help elsewhere and likely despise Linux users like you more.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > I have no illusions You're reading this incorrectly. This means they don't think what they say next.
luckylion 5y ago
> Most people are too hard-headed to listen to common sense or do what is in their own best interests. I am simply doing my small part to encourage average people to see the light, even if just my friends and family. This could just as well be used as an argument why the homeless/drug addicts/etc shouldn't get help. "If we don't help them, we're encouraging them to see the light and take care of themselves". No, probably not, we're just being assholes. It's fine to tell people (even people you know and love) that you won't play support for their computer troubles because you're busy or hate using Windows, but framing it as "I'm actually helping you by not helping you" is weird.
loloquwowndueo 5y ago
“ I spend probably 2% or less of my computer time now in front of Windows computers. I use Zoom a little” So, Windows user. I spend 0% of my time in front of Windows computers and still wouldn’t refuse to help a non-Linux user. Also zoom is available for Linux. Hypocrite.
- mikro2nd 5y ago
  So, as a Linux user these past 20 years or more, it's not that I'm unwilling to help my Windows-using family and friends, it's that I am no longer competent to do so. The last time I tried (perhaps 8 or 10 years ago) the problem turned out to be that Windows insisted on controlling DNS settings that were never going to work. Somebody else had to find this out and fix it after I'd banged on it for an hour or more and failed to figure out what was going on in Windows' rats-nest of system config. It was then that I realised that I should never try to help Windows users ever again: the likelihood is I'd do more harm than good. There've been a couple of newer releases of Windows since those days, so the situation's only got worse.
  - zinekeller 5y ago
    That's totally fine in my opinion, Windows 11 actually overhauls most settings pane that it requires re-learning for advanced users (except for Group Policy and equivalent enterprise-level tools).
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      I have to admit, old Windows network configuration for example was a mess. But once you kinda figured it out you could handle it. I don't think new one is much better... Still, I don't have much good to say about Linux either. I think on Ubuntu you can manage to get 3 different ways of network configuration all half-working and not working at same time not being visible to each other...
      - zinekeller 5y ago
        Yup, fought with NetworkManager (is it part of SystemD? Definitely Red Hat though) and resolvconf (not the resolv.conf file) on that one, and that's only on the terminal. Desktop networking, even on macOS, is a pain unless you somehow use terminal-based NetSh/BIND tools/SystemD/IPTools (or registry and the (GUI) management console/MSC on Windows).
SMAAART 5y ago
Quite interesting. Newbie question: In the corporate world, where for instance people need to run QuickBooks, what would be the solution? Is there a way to wrap QuickBook in a container/emulator?
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  You can run anything in a VM. With something like QuickBooks it's not like performance will be a problem either. The great thing about a VM is that someone else can set it up for you and then you can reset to a good configuration easily if they break it. (Why aren't non-VM systems like that with checkpointing?)
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > Why aren't non-VM systems like that with checkpointing? Microsoft tried it with System Restore. Of course because it's Microsoft they somehow made using it worse than not using it.
- imgabe 5y ago
  You keep your books in a plain text file and use ledger-cli
- mikro2nd 5y ago
  Run some other accounting package?
- 0des 5y ago
  GNUCash is a great alternative to QuickBooks. However, you do say "in the corporate world", which in my experience wouldn't be using QuickBooks. Be that as it may, GNUCash is every bit as capable as QuickBooks, I'd highly recommend it.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
> Refusing to support my friends' and family members' devices that do not run Linux is the next step in my personal fight against products that run bad software > So, when my mother, sister, brother, or anyone else comes to me begging to have his or her computer fixed Sorry to be blunt, but you sound like an terrible person with an over-dimensioned ego. If you do not want to support your family, fine - no need to announce it to the world. You are free to do that of course, but you have to bear the consequences of people saying "what a [put your favourite expletive here]" instead of "what a wise person to battle against mighty [put your least-favourite tech here]". I support my parents with their tech even if it is often full of things I would not have used. I roll my eyes up and fix it. And ask them not to do this anymore, and they still sometimes do. This is not that different from them telling me, 40 years back, to not do this and that. And me still doing it. Boy, I am really, really glad they did not decide to stop supporting me until I grow up :) Honestly, read what you wrote again and take a step back to say "ok, this sounds really bad". PS. when you gain back a lot of time for not supporting these technical noobs, make sure to fix your site that has plenty of problems - it does not look good for an "Itinerant Engineer" who built the impressive number of 11 web sites.
- throw3849 5y ago
  But he DOES support them, but answer is usually "I will install linux". Not everyone is Windows or MacOS expert. I do programming for 30 years. Las time I used Windows was 15 years ago. I never used Mac (maybe like 3 hours total).
  - scambier 5y ago
    Just like the parent said then, > If you do not want to support your family, fine - no need to announce it to the world
    - JCharante 5y ago
      They do want to support their family, just not with bad software. It's the difference between being willing to give your kid a ride to sports practice vs a crack den. You do want to support your kid, just not enable them if they're going to be doing bad things.
paulcole 5y ago
> Perhaps my fellow nerds and geeks will call me naive. I don’t think it’s naive, but the way it’s being presented as, “I’m doing this for your own good” is obstinate and frustrating in a way I wouldn’t want to be towards my friends and family.
murbard2 5y ago
> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. Or, y'a know, they upgraded their system but the new version of the kernel isn't compatible with the bluetooth device unless they patch the bios, but the bios patching tool from the vendor somehow destroys the grub entries due to an unrelated bug, requiring them to boot in a recovery disk, mount the encrypted volume, map the lvm volumes, chroot and ... I've used Linux exclusively on the desktop for almost 20 years. Has it gotten much better? Yes. Are there still deal intractable problems for normal users which aren't Linux's fault but nonetheless represent deal breakers? Also yes.
- JCharante 5y ago
  We teach people general math skills that 90% of them don't use after graduating high schools. Why not also teach these computer skills that aren't directly relevant to their careers but will be of use given that in modern societies people use computers?
  - atonse 5y ago
    But they’re only of use if you choose Linux and run into problems. You can use a computer perfectly fine on macOS without knowing those things.
- smallerfish 5y ago
  Eh, there's a sweet spot. I installed Ubuntu on my dad's computer 12 years ago, showed him how to upload his photos, and to use the browser and abiword, and left him to it. I apply updates remotely every 6 months or so, and do OS upgrades every few years between LTS versions. It's been rock solid. Otoh my mom was on ubuntu for about 18 months and switched back to windows. She wanted to do more with it, e.g. install photoshop, scan documents (this was pre ubuntu coming out with simple scan or whatever, when xsane was still state of the art), yada yada. For relatives who just need a stable set-it-and-forget-it computer, linux is fine. For wannabe "power users", they have to be interested in investing the time to get over the learning curve. That's a more evangelical sell. I'm kind of with the author, although am a little less strident about it - "ehh, I haven't used windows in 20 years or so, but let me google that for you and see if I find anything you can try" is my usual approach.
bulgr0z 5y ago
Posturing about windows bad linux good and admitting to using an android phone for convenience feels like peak nerd gatekeeping.
- dolmen 5y ago
  Android uses a Linux kernel.
  - bulgr0z 5y ago
    It does for the time being, but conflating "android" and AOSP just because of the linux kernel is a bit of a stretch, to me it feels like saying macos is "fine because Darwin is open source"
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    When people say Linux they usually mean GNU/Linux, which Android is not.
- fragileone 5y ago
  Numerous Android phones can run mainline Linux and many more can run a Android-based ROM. What's wrong with buying a phone with commercial Android then getting flashed with something different?
simonswords82 5y ago
Clicked Home on his website and it took me to a page does not exist error. He should spend less time moaning about his family's choice of OS and more time fixing his website.
- qayxc 5y ago
  He moans about a lot of things - try his "Doctors Don't Seem to Care if They Kill Their Patients"-article. It painted a grim picture in my head about what kind of character he is. I honestly couldn't tell whether it was satire.
mark_l_watson 5y ago
I am fairly cheerful in helping family, and a few of my best friends, with computer problems, regardless of what they have. I appreciate the author’s privacy preserving preferences, but I almost always recommend to non-tech family and friends that they consider getting a Chromebook or iPad as their only non-phone device. I don’t think that most people need a general purpose device so why not just make everyone’s lives easier. The Chromebook recommendation may seem crazy from a privacy viewpoint, but if you show people how to configure their Google account to only store YouTube history for 30 days while setting all other data retention to zero days, use Duck Duck Go, turn off location, and use the web version of Proton Mail and Calendar then people have a system that is cheap, useable, and is not so bad from a privacy perspective. I have many different computer systems (4 laptops running Linux, 3 MacBooks, iPad), but use a small Lenovo Duet Chromebook with my recommended setup for much of my casual web browsing, reading eBooks, and using streaming media. I accept any criticism for using Google services, but they do have useful services (I love GCP, and use Hetzner, AWS, and Azure as second choices) and with some care I feel like I can use Google in a reasonably privacy respecting way.
bbarn 5y ago
You sound really fun at parties.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
cranekam 5y ago
The author must be fun at a party.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. Actually a big part of it is that its community is full of people like this. ...and a huge number of other reasons, but having a high probability of encountering a condescending asshole whenever you engage with the community certainly doesn't help.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
You know… I stopped supporting Windows years ago. I switched to macOS in 2008, but it might as well have been Linux for all my family knew. As the years when by, it became easier and easier to say I honestly didn’t have a clue how Windows worked anymore. It helps that my nearest relatives are 8 hours away by car. Eventually they stopped calling for support. They weren’t interested in switching to something I could help with. I could have been more pushy, but I have enough problems with the world that I don’t have the energy to go on a religious crusade to make people use an operating system that is unsupported by most consumer repair places.
- kafkaIncarnate 5y ago
  I agree with most of this, but recommending using computer repair shops is a bit sketchy... The smaller ones would have staff that would need the money more than GeekSquad, too, so it's probably all on lock now. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170106/10163236419/fbi-is-apparently-paying-geek-squad-members-to-dig-around-computers-evidence-criminal-activity.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170106/10163236419/fbi-i...
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Not at all surprised. Perhaps it’s better to say, a more widely supported operating system. My relatives have a better chance at finding someone in their church to help them if they use Windows. I’m the only person in my rather wide friend group that has any Linux experience and most of that is with servers.
kissgyorgy 5y ago
A more precise title would be: "I'm an asshole even to my own family." This being on front page is just fucked up.
lbrito 5y ago
Uncanny resemblance https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/install-gentoo https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/install-gentoo
- jamil7 5y ago
  I had this one in mind while reading to be honest https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sir-this-is-an-arbys https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sir-this-is-an-arbys
dolmen 5y ago
As someone who maintains 6 computers for 5 Ubuntu machines family members (7 to 80yo) I can just testimony that it isn't painless. Here are recurrent issues: * printing (hplip): paper might come now or tomorrow * UI changes * UEFI boot destroyed by an Ubuntu minor upgrade At least running Flash is not a problem anymore. The good side: no hardware upgrade required for years.
- feanaro 5y ago
  I maintain about 5 Mint machines for my family members (all older than 50 though) and it's completely painless for me. I don't remember the last time I had to do phone support.
- don-code 5y ago
  > UI changes This, but I'd argue it's not limited to Ubuntu, or even to Linux. For the desktop environment, I've been using Cinnamon with my family, since it's ostensibly most similar in the UI metaphor to Windows. That's luckily been a nonissue. The problem has been Web browsers - looking specifically at Firefox. My mom and my grandmother had pretty big upsets when Firefox released Australis, and Photon knocked my grandmother off the Internet completely (she suffers from dementia and isn't able to comprehend changes in her environment anymore). It doesn't have to be that way. My dad is still using SeaMonkey, and has almost completely avoided this problem - the UI has been largely consistent since the Netscape 4 days.
victorbstan 5y ago
I wish you could downvote posts.
forinti 5y ago
My mother-in-law has a computer which she uses to play card games and surf the web. Some family members kept installing trash on it, sometimes with malware. I proposed we switch to Linux so that they wouldn't manage to install anything on it. We tried Ubuntu and it has been a tremendous success. I even found my sister-in-law happily using LibreOffice on it one day. People's reservations towards Linux are completely unfounded (nowadays).
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Did they get sudo rights? I doubt that if Linux Desktop really comes if there won't be same or bigger amount of crap on it. Or bad instructions just bricking it... After social part the attacks are pretty trivial. Copy this nice command line thing that downloads all the crap from Internet...
  - forinti 5y ago
    No, they didn't.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  What do those other family members play their trash on? Did they buy a second computer? Or move on to another family member's computer? Not sure I'm ready to call it an unqualified success.
snet0 5y ago
"Oh yeah I sold my Macbook and Dell PC after Steve refused to help me fix a problem I had with Zoom" This achieves nothing except make your family think less of you. Get over yourself.
hughrr 5y ago
I hope they all install Linux. Supporting Linux on the desktop is absolute hell.
- swiley 5y ago
  It’s gotten a lot better with eg Pop_OS!. My girlfriend installed that last year and I’ve had an easier time with it than with Windows 10.
- infamia 5y ago
  This is very different from my experience supporting family members' Linux machines. Linux simply doesn't break and get constantly polluted/corrupted like Windows did very regularly. One of my parents is thousands of miles away. It must "just work", and it has for years with some careful initial setup. It's also great that I can't remember the last time they had to buy a computer.
fragileone 5y ago
A question to those dismissing the author: would you help a family member sign up to some random app that tracked their keystrokes, sent them highly targeted ads, sold their personal data to 3rd parties, interrupted their work by forcing them to reboot their devices and constantly violated their privacy? No? Then why is it okay to encourage it when it's Microsoft? This is how deeply ingrained brand loyalty is, to the point that like Stockholm's syndrome people will think up any excuse to enable their oppressor. How is it in your benefit in any way to keep cheerleading the corporate behemoth, rather than plucky newcomer who only has your freedom and best interests in mind?
don-code 5y ago
For about 20 years I've been "the IT guy" for my friends and family. I also stopped using Windows during the Windows 7 era, and I've never used Windows 8+ on my own hardware. Reliance happens because you demonstrate both the willingness and knowledge to fix something. I'm still willing, but I'm utterly lost in front of a Windows 10 PC. That is what now makes people less likely to reach out to me for help.
alazoral 5y ago
Linux, and all free software, is at its heart a gift economy. It's all about making amazing things, solving problems, and working together as a community to make everything better together so everyone can have better choices. So my feeling is that if you're claiming to represent and evangelise that community, using obstinate tribalism to justify commoditising your familial love isn't the way to win hearts and minds. Seems, to me, like a way to perpetrate some pretty terrible stereotypes. Computers aren't inherently useful, or good. They are just boxes with a number inside. If we use them to make people we love happy, only then are they useful and good.
orwin 5y ago
I decided to stop supporting non-Unix devices long ago. Microsoft ops/adminsys are gods, honestly. Cryptic messages, error logs that disappear, interfaces everywhere (i'm not against GUI but sometime its too much). I can't really configure networking since XP (or windows 7 i guess), it changed too much. Things that takes one hour to understand with most Unix can take a week for windows (versioning multiple php and multiple php-crypt, what a pleasure...). Anyway, Mac are sufficently unixy that i don't have that much issues. I recommand chromebooks for non tech-savy people now and i did install linux mint on my grandmother PC shortly before she passed away (no relation hopefully), it was great and i had a remote access without installing a scam enabler. If you don't mind explaining things to your grandmother, this is a great idea. I did shortcut her three apps (and did aliases in the terminal to show her how i work usually, i don't think she ever used ctrl-alt-T after that day but still, great times). 100% would do again.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Windows admin is part of my dayjob and honestly Linux is just as bad, often in the same ways (cryptic errors, logs in random places or none at all, infinity different config file formats...), but also in completely different ways.
snickerer 5y ago
I told my family 20 years ago that I only would administrate Unix-like operating systems. Not because I am in a holy war or because I am an evangelist or I am an a missionary. I am just used to Linux configuration and I find Windows administration frustrating. This year me mother told me that after 20 years she had to use Windows 10 (instead of her usual XFCE desktop) somewhere. It was horrible, she told me. She didn't got it to do what she wanted and it bothered her with annoying ads and other nonsense. As you can imagine, this made me feel - somewhat smugly - vindicated.
forinti 5y ago
> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. I once had an interesting conversation with a chap who wanted to install Windows on his tablet. He said it would be easier to configure Wifi. I asked him if he knew how to configure Wifi on Windows. He did not. People's connection do Windows is not really explained by familiarity or ease of use.
dsr_ 5y ago
I did this about 18 years ago. I maintain my father's computers remotely, and never touch my mother's computers, because she wants to use Windows. Everyone is comfortable with this arrangement.
mijoharas 5y ago
I just say (honestly) that I'm not very familiar with windows anymore. I've slowly started saying the same thing with MacOS as it's getting longer and longer since I used it, but I'm still relatively competent from helping colleagues out. I did install Linux on my partners machine ever since a forced windows update (I think it was to windows 10?) bricked her previous laptop. For me, part of it is I'm generally unhappy having to fix windows machines. They make me somewhat frustrated and I find it relatively simple to diagnose and fix any Linux problems, even on "foreign" distros.
taylodl 5y ago
Years ago I decided to stop supporting my family's non-Apple devices. They now all have Macs and iPhones and I don't have to support anything - it just works (they've somehow avoided all the hardware issues a lot of people have been having, but I can't support hardware anyway, so it's still a win for me). Most of their issues nowadays are with their routers but they know how to solve those problems: a reboot or reset. I have to help my mom with a reset. That's about all the family tech support I have to do these days. HN can complain about Apple all they want but for non-computer savvy consumers it's a very good experience.
teilo 5y ago
I have 23 years of Linux experience (desktop, server, embedded platforms, web app stacks). I also work in the real world where idealistic jerks like this are quickly out of a job.
eigengrau5150 5y ago
> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. I'm sure that having to be your own sysadmin to run a Unix-like OS has nothing to do with it.
ankushnarula 5y ago
Religious zealotry divides families.
reph2097 5y ago
OP is absolutely right. Mac users, go call your genius bar. Windows users, go away.
phendrenad2 5y ago
Been there, done that. It's a great way to drive your high-flying Linux ideals head-first into the brick wall of average user reality. I highly recommend it. For best results, try this: 1) Get your grandmother/grandfather onto Linux. Set up their facebook and show them how to upload photos they scanned in at Walmart. (This is level 1. If you run into problems here, you're not ready for harder levels). 2) Get your parents to use it. Show them how to install programs from the app store, like Chrome, and get them set up with turbotax, youtube, banking, etc. They'll probably want mahjong or something, so show them how to install that. 3) (Final boss) Get your semi-computer-literate cousins to use Linux. They've been using Windows since childhood. They know how to install games via Steam. Show them how to use WINE/Proton, how to use LibreOffice to write book reports, how to use GIMP to tough up their photos. Show them how to upgrade Java and Minecraft.
crecker 5y ago
Hey, OP here. The article is not mine.

43 points by crecker 5y ago

rvz 5y ago

> But, my feeling is that many Linux distributions are now only slightly harder to use than MacOS or Windows. The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. They simply are not willing to spend the time to understand their need for privacy and good software. Nor are they willing to spend a few hours learning the basics of Linux. They will just Google it themselves on their Windows or MacOS machine, rather than installing whatever 'Linux' distro you want them to. Why waste time installing a 'Linux' distro when WSL exists and they can continue to use Windows but have a Linux ecosystem sitting in a VM. > If we wait much longer, we may lose Linux as a viable option. Exactly. it's called Fuchsia and it is going to replace Android and ChromeOS. Better hurry up then. > But, I can no longer help my friends and family members to get into bed with the big-tech python that is slowly unhinging its jaw in preparation for devouring them. If they choose to lie down, I can do nothing about it, but I can refuse to continue helping them into bed! Googling will help them instead and you don't need to 'install Linux' for that. So what is your point?

Festro 5y ago

> I have Decided to Stop Supporting My Family's Non-Linux Devices Oh dear, however will they recover from this? > I have no illusions that by writing this article I will be firing the first shot in the war of the nerds against big tech. Really? Ego much? Plenty of shots have been fired for decades. > I spend probably 2% or less of my computer time now in front of Windows computers. I use Zoom a little and rarely play two Windows PC games. Good for you, but don't hold others to that. If they use Windows 100% of the time then that's their choice. If you can't sell Linux on its benefits then I really doubt refusing to help your loved ones with Windows issues is going to change their minds. They'll just find help elsewhere and likely despise Linux users like you more.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> I have no illusions You're reading this incorrectly. This means they don't think what they say next.

luckylion 5y ago

> Most people are too hard-headed to listen to common sense or do what is in their own best interests. I am simply doing my small part to encourage average people to see the light, even if just my friends and family. This could just as well be used as an argument why the homeless/drug addicts/etc shouldn't get help. "If we don't help them, we're encouraging them to see the light and take care of themselves". No, probably not, we're just being assholes. It's fine to tell people (even people you know and love) that you won't play support for their computer troubles because you're busy or hate using Windows, but framing it as "I'm actually helping you by not helping you" is weird.

loloquwowndueo 5y ago

“ I spend probably 2% or less of my computer time now in front of Windows computers. I use Zoom a little” So, Windows user. I spend 0% of my time in front of Windows computers and still wouldn’t refuse to help a non-Linux user. Also zoom is available for Linux. Hypocrite.

mikro2nd 5y ago
So, as a Linux user these past 20 years or more, it's not that I'm unwilling to help my Windows-using family and friends, it's that I am no longer competent to do so. The last time I tried (perhaps 8 or 10 years ago) the problem turned out to be that Windows insisted on controlling DNS settings that were never going to work. Somebody else had to find this out and fix it after I'd banged on it for an hour or more and failed to figure out what was going on in Windows' rats-nest of system config. It was then that I realised that I should never try to help Windows users ever again: the likelihood is I'd do more harm than good. There've been a couple of newer releases of Windows since those days, so the situation's only got worse.
- zinekeller 5y ago
  That's totally fine in my opinion, Windows 11 actually overhauls most settings pane that it requires re-learning for advanced users (except for Group Policy and equivalent enterprise-level tools).
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    I have to admit, old Windows network configuration for example was a mess. But once you kinda figured it out you could handle it. I don't think new one is much better... Still, I don't have much good to say about Linux either. I think on Ubuntu you can manage to get 3 different ways of network configuration all half-working and not working at same time not being visible to each other...
    - zinekeller 5y ago
      Yup, fought with NetworkManager (is it part of SystemD? Definitely Red Hat though) and resolvconf (not the resolv.conf file) on that one, and that's only on the terminal. Desktop networking, even on macOS, is a pain unless you somehow use terminal-based NetSh/BIND tools/SystemD/IPTools (or registry and the (GUI) management console/MSC on Windows).

SMAAART 5y ago

Quite interesting. Newbie question: In the corporate world, where for instance people need to run QuickBooks, what would be the solution? Is there a way to wrap QuickBook in a container/emulator?

chrisseaton 5y ago
You can run anything in a VM. With something like QuickBooks it's not like performance will be a problem either. The great thing about a VM is that someone else can set it up for you and then you can reset to a good configuration easily if they break it. (Why aren't non-VM systems like that with checkpointing?)
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > Why aren't non-VM systems like that with checkpointing? Microsoft tried it with System Restore. Of course because it's Microsoft they somehow made using it worse than not using it.
imgabe 5y ago
You keep your books in a plain text file and use ledger-cli
mikro2nd 5y ago
Run some other accounting package?
0des 5y ago
GNUCash is a great alternative to QuickBooks. However, you do say "in the corporate world", which in my experience wouldn't be using QuickBooks. Be that as it may, GNUCash is every bit as capable as QuickBooks, I'd highly recommend it.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

> Refusing to support my friends' and family members' devices that do not run Linux is the next step in my personal fight against products that run bad software > So, when my mother, sister, brother, or anyone else comes to me begging to have his or her computer fixed Sorry to be blunt, but you sound like an terrible person with an over-dimensioned ego. If you do not want to support your family, fine - no need to announce it to the world. You are free to do that of course, but you have to bear the consequences of people saying "what a [put your favourite expletive here]" instead of "what a wise person to battle against mighty [put your least-favourite tech here]". I support my parents with their tech even if it is often full of things I would not have used. I roll my eyes up and fix it. And ask them not to do this anymore, and they still sometimes do. This is not that different from them telling me, 40 years back, to not do this and that. And me still doing it. Boy, I am really, really glad they did not decide to stop supporting me until I grow up :) Honestly, read what you wrote again and take a step back to say "ok, this sounds really bad". PS. when you gain back a lot of time for not supporting these technical noobs, make sure to fix your site that has plenty of problems - it does not look good for an "Itinerant Engineer" who built the impressive number of 11 web sites.

throw3849 5y ago
But he DOES support them, but answer is usually "I will install linux". Not everyone is Windows or MacOS expert. I do programming for 30 years. Las time I used Windows was 15 years ago. I never used Mac (maybe like 3 hours total).
- scambier 5y ago
  Just like the parent said then, > If you do not want to support your family, fine - no need to announce it to the world
  - JCharante 5y ago
    They do want to support their family, just not with bad software. It's the difference between being willing to give your kid a ride to sports practice vs a crack den. You do want to support your kid, just not enable them if they're going to be doing bad things.

paulcole 5y ago

> Perhaps my fellow nerds and geeks will call me naive. I don’t think it’s naive, but the way it’s being presented as, “I’m doing this for your own good” is obstinate and frustrating in a way I wouldn’t want to be towards my friends and family.

murbard2 5y ago

> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. Or, y'a know, they upgraded their system but the new version of the kernel isn't compatible with the bluetooth device unless they patch the bios, but the bios patching tool from the vendor somehow destroys the grub entries due to an unrelated bug, requiring them to boot in a recovery disk, mount the encrypted volume, map the lvm volumes, chroot and ... I've used Linux exclusively on the desktop for almost 20 years. Has it gotten much better? Yes. Are there still deal intractable problems for normal users which aren't Linux's fault but nonetheless represent deal breakers? Also yes.

JCharante 5y ago
We teach people general math skills that 90% of them don't use after graduating high schools. Why not also teach these computer skills that aren't directly relevant to their careers but will be of use given that in modern societies people use computers?
- atonse 5y ago
  But they’re only of use if you choose Linux and run into problems. You can use a computer perfectly fine on macOS without knowing those things.
smallerfish 5y ago
Eh, there's a sweet spot. I installed Ubuntu on my dad's computer 12 years ago, showed him how to upload his photos, and to use the browser and abiword, and left him to it. I apply updates remotely every 6 months or so, and do OS upgrades every few years between LTS versions. It's been rock solid. Otoh my mom was on ubuntu for about 18 months and switched back to windows. She wanted to do more with it, e.g. install photoshop, scan documents (this was pre ubuntu coming out with simple scan or whatever, when xsane was still state of the art), yada yada. For relatives who just need a stable set-it-and-forget-it computer, linux is fine. For wannabe "power users", they have to be interested in investing the time to get over the learning curve. That's a more evangelical sell. I'm kind of with the author, although am a little less strident about it - "ehh, I haven't used windows in 20 years or so, but let me google that for you and see if I find anything you can try" is my usual approach.

bulgr0z 5y ago

Posturing about windows bad linux good and admitting to using an android phone for convenience feels like peak nerd gatekeeping.

dolmen 5y ago
Android uses a Linux kernel.
- bulgr0z 5y ago
  It does for the time being, but conflating "android" and AOSP just because of the linux kernel is a bit of a stretch, to me it feels like saying macos is "fine because Darwin is open source"
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  When people say Linux they usually mean GNU/Linux, which Android is not.
fragileone 5y ago
Numerous Android phones can run mainline Linux and many more can run a Android-based ROM. What's wrong with buying a phone with commercial Android then getting flashed with something different?

simonswords82 5y ago

Clicked Home on his website and it took me to a page does not exist error. He should spend less time moaning about his family's choice of OS and more time fixing his website.

qayxc 5y ago
He moans about a lot of things - try his "Doctors Don't Seem to Care if They Kill Their Patients"-article. It painted a grim picture in my head about what kind of character he is. I honestly couldn't tell whether it was satire.

mark_l_watson 5y ago

I am fairly cheerful in helping family, and a few of my best friends, with computer problems, regardless of what they have. I appreciate the author’s privacy preserving preferences, but I almost always recommend to non-tech family and friends that they consider getting a Chromebook or iPad as their only non-phone device. I don’t think that most people need a general purpose device so why not just make everyone’s lives easier. The Chromebook recommendation may seem crazy from a privacy viewpoint, but if you show people how to configure their Google account to only store YouTube history for 30 days while setting all other data retention to zero days, use Duck Duck Go, turn off location, and use the web version of Proton Mail and Calendar then people have a system that is cheap, useable, and is not so bad from a privacy perspective. I have many different computer systems (4 laptops running Linux, 3 MacBooks, iPad), but use a small Lenovo Duet Chromebook with my recommended setup for much of my casual web browsing, reading eBooks, and using streaming media. I accept any criticism for using Google services, but they do have useful services (I love GCP, and use Hetzner, AWS, and Azure as second choices) and with some care I feel like I can use Google in a reasonably privacy respecting way.

bbarn 5y ago

You sound really fun at parties.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

cranekam 5y ago

The author must be fun at a party.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. Actually a big part of it is that its community is full of people like this. ...and a huge number of other reasons, but having a high probability of encountering a condescending asshole whenever you engage with the community certainly doesn't help.

kayodelycaon 5y ago

You know… I stopped supporting Windows years ago. I switched to macOS in 2008, but it might as well have been Linux for all my family knew. As the years when by, it became easier and easier to say I honestly didn’t have a clue how Windows worked anymore. It helps that my nearest relatives are 8 hours away by car. Eventually they stopped calling for support. They weren’t interested in switching to something I could help with. I could have been more pushy, but I have enough problems with the world that I don’t have the energy to go on a religious crusade to make people use an operating system that is unsupported by most consumer repair places.

kafkaIncarnate 5y ago
I agree with most of this, but recommending using computer repair shops is a bit sketchy... The smaller ones would have staff that would need the money more than GeekSquad, too, so it's probably all on lock now. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170106/10163236419/fbi-is-apparently-paying-geek-squad-members-to-dig-around-computers-evidence-criminal-activity.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170106/10163236419/fbi-i...
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Not at all surprised. Perhaps it’s better to say, a more widely supported operating system. My relatives have a better chance at finding someone in their church to help them if they use Windows. I’m the only person in my rather wide friend group that has any Linux experience and most of that is with servers.

kissgyorgy 5y ago

A more precise title would be: "I'm an asshole even to my own family." This being on front page is just fucked up.

lbrito 5y ago

Uncanny resemblance https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/install-gentoo https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/install-gentoo

jamil7 5y ago
I had this one in mind while reading to be honest https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sir-this-is-an-arbys https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sir-this-is-an-arbys

dolmen 5y ago

As someone who maintains 6 computers for 5 Ubuntu machines family members (7 to 80yo) I can just testimony that it isn't painless. Here are recurrent issues: * printing (hplip): paper might come now or tomorrow * UI changes * UEFI boot destroyed by an Ubuntu minor upgrade At least running Flash is not a problem anymore. The good side: no hardware upgrade required for years.

feanaro 5y ago
I maintain about 5 Mint machines for my family members (all older than 50 though) and it's completely painless for me. I don't remember the last time I had to do phone support.
don-code 5y ago
> UI changes This, but I'd argue it's not limited to Ubuntu, or even to Linux. For the desktop environment, I've been using Cinnamon with my family, since it's ostensibly most similar in the UI metaphor to Windows. That's luckily been a nonissue. The problem has been Web browsers - looking specifically at Firefox. My mom and my grandmother had pretty big upsets when Firefox released Australis, and Photon knocked my grandmother off the Internet completely (she suffers from dementia and isn't able to comprehend changes in her environment anymore). It doesn't have to be that way. My dad is still using SeaMonkey, and has almost completely avoided this problem - the UI has been largely consistent since the Netscape 4 days.

victorbstan 5y ago

I wish you could downvote posts.

forinti 5y ago

My mother-in-law has a computer which she uses to play card games and surf the web. Some family members kept installing trash on it, sometimes with malware. I proposed we switch to Linux so that they wouldn't manage to install anything on it. We tried Ubuntu and it has been a tremendous success. I even found my sister-in-law happily using LibreOffice on it one day. People's reservations towards Linux are completely unfounded (nowadays).

Ekaros 5y ago
Did they get sudo rights? I doubt that if Linux Desktop really comes if there won't be same or bigger amount of crap on it. Or bad instructions just bricking it... After social part the attacks are pretty trivial. Copy this nice command line thing that downloads all the crap from Internet...
- forinti 5y ago
  No, they didn't.
phendrenad2 5y ago
What do those other family members play their trash on? Did they buy a second computer? Or move on to another family member's computer? Not sure I'm ready to call it an unqualified success.

snet0 5y ago

"Oh yeah I sold my Macbook and Dell PC after Steve refused to help me fix a problem I had with Zoom" This achieves nothing except make your family think less of you. Get over yourself.

hughrr 5y ago

I hope they all install Linux. Supporting Linux on the desktop is absolute hell.

swiley 5y ago
It’s gotten a lot better with eg Pop_OS!. My girlfriend installed that last year and I’ve had an easier time with it than with Windows 10.
infamia 5y ago
This is very different from my experience supporting family members' Linux machines. Linux simply doesn't break and get constantly polluted/corrupted like Windows did very regularly. One of my parents is thousands of miles away. It must "just work", and it has for years with some careful initial setup. It's also great that I can't remember the last time they had to buy a computer.

fragileone 5y ago

A question to those dismissing the author: would you help a family member sign up to some random app that tracked their keystrokes, sent them highly targeted ads, sold their personal data to 3rd parties, interrupted their work by forcing them to reboot their devices and constantly violated their privacy? No? Then why is it okay to encourage it when it's Microsoft? This is how deeply ingrained brand loyalty is, to the point that like Stockholm's syndrome people will think up any excuse to enable their oppressor. How is it in your benefit in any way to keep cheerleading the corporate behemoth, rather than plucky newcomer who only has your freedom and best interests in mind?

don-code 5y ago

For about 20 years I've been "the IT guy" for my friends and family. I also stopped using Windows during the Windows 7 era, and I've never used Windows 8+ on my own hardware. Reliance happens because you demonstrate both the willingness and knowledge to fix something. I'm still willing, but I'm utterly lost in front of a Windows 10 PC. That is what now makes people less likely to reach out to me for help.

alazoral 5y ago

Linux, and all free software, is at its heart a gift economy. It's all about making amazing things, solving problems, and working together as a community to make everything better together so everyone can have better choices. So my feeling is that if you're claiming to represent and evangelise that community, using obstinate tribalism to justify commoditising your familial love isn't the way to win hearts and minds. Seems, to me, like a way to perpetrate some pretty terrible stereotypes. Computers aren't inherently useful, or good. They are just boxes with a number inside. If we use them to make people we love happy, only then are they useful and good.

orwin 5y ago

I decided to stop supporting non-Unix devices long ago. Microsoft ops/adminsys are gods, honestly. Cryptic messages, error logs that disappear, interfaces everywhere (i'm not against GUI but sometime its too much). I can't really configure networking since XP (or windows 7 i guess), it changed too much. Things that takes one hour to understand with most Unix can take a week for windows (versioning multiple php and multiple php-crypt, what a pleasure...). Anyway, Mac are sufficently unixy that i don't have that much issues. I recommand chromebooks for non tech-savy people now and i did install linux mint on my grandmother PC shortly before she passed away (no relation hopefully), it was great and i had a remote access without installing a scam enabler. If you don't mind explaining things to your grandmother, this is a great idea. I did shortcut her three apps (and did aliases in the terminal to show her how i work usually, i don't think she ever used ctrl-alt-T after that day but still, great times). 100% would do again.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Windows admin is part of my dayjob and honestly Linux is just as bad, often in the same ways (cryptic errors, logs in random places or none at all, infinity different config file formats...), but also in completely different ways.

snickerer 5y ago

I told my family 20 years ago that I only would administrate Unix-like operating systems. Not because I am in a holy war or because I am an evangelist or I am an a missionary. I am just used to Linux configuration and I find Windows administration frustrating. This year me mother told me that after 20 years she had to use Windows 10 (instead of her usual XFCE desktop) somewhere. It was horrible, she told me. She didn't got it to do what she wanted and it bothered her with annoying ads and other nonsense. As you can imagine, this made me feel - somewhat smugly - vindicated.

forinti 5y ago

> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. I once had an interesting conversation with a chap who wanted to install Windows on his tablet. He said it would be easier to configure Wifi. I asked him if he knew how to configure Wifi on Windows. He did not. People's connection do Windows is not really explained by familiarity or ease of use.

dsr_ 5y ago

I did this about 18 years ago. I maintain my father's computers remotely, and never touch my mother's computers, because she wants to use Windows. Everyone is comfortable with this arrangement.

mijoharas 5y ago

I just say (honestly) that I'm not very familiar with windows anymore. I've slowly started saying the same thing with MacOS as it's getting longer and longer since I used it, but I'm still relatively competent from helping colleagues out. I did install Linux on my partners machine ever since a forced windows update (I think it was to windows 10?) bricked her previous laptop. For me, part of it is I'm generally unhappy having to fix windows machines. They make me somewhat frustrated and I find it relatively simple to diagnose and fix any Linux problems, even on "foreign" distros.

taylodl 5y ago

Years ago I decided to stop supporting my family's non-Apple devices. They now all have Macs and iPhones and I don't have to support anything - it just works (they've somehow avoided all the hardware issues a lot of people have been having, but I can't support hardware anyway, so it's still a win for me). Most of their issues nowadays are with their routers but they know how to solve those problems: a reboot or reset. I have to help my mom with a reset. That's about all the family tech support I have to do these days. HN can complain about Apple all they want but for non-computer savvy consumers it's a very good experience.

teilo 5y ago

I have 23 years of Linux experience (desktop, server, embedded platforms, web app stacks). I also work in the real world where idealistic jerks like this are quickly out of a job.

eigengrau5150 5y ago

> The only things really stopping average people from using Linux are ignorance of the issues and laziness. I'm sure that having to be your own sysadmin to run a Unix-like OS has nothing to do with it.

ankushnarula 5y ago

Religious zealotry divides families.

reph2097 5y ago

OP is absolutely right. Mac users, go call your genius bar. Windows users, go away.

phendrenad2 5y ago

Been there, done that. It's a great way to drive your high-flying Linux ideals head-first into the brick wall of average user reality. I highly recommend it. For best results, try this: 1) Get your grandmother/grandfather onto Linux. Set up their facebook and show them how to upload photos they scanned in at Walmart. (This is level 1. If you run into problems here, you're not ready for harder levels). 2) Get your parents to use it. Show them how to install programs from the app store, like Chrome, and get them set up with turbotax, youtube, banking, etc. They'll probably want mahjong or something, so show them how to install that. 3) (Final boss) Get your semi-computer-literate cousins to use Linux. They've been using Windows since childhood. They know how to install games via Steam. Show them how to use WINE/Proton, how to use LibreOffice to write book reports, how to use GIMP to tough up their photos. Show them how to upgrade Java and Minecraft.

crecker 5y ago

Hey, OP here. The article is not mine.