5 ms·

I have a few thoughts about this- 1) I dont think it is 'professional' behavior to discuss everyones business on a slack channel 2) I dont necessarily agree wi

by S_A_P 5y ago

I have a few thoughts about this- 1) I dont think it is 'professional' behavior to discuss everyones business on a slack channel 2) I dont necessarily agree with equal pay for each job title. I think it should definitely be in a ballpark based on job function. I've worked long enough that I've seen equally titled employees with VASTLY different work outputs. That isnt to say that the less productive employee was even a bad employee, they just werent the 10x employee the other one was. I dont see a problem with the 10x employee making more money. 3) Is complaining on Slack or posting your salary the best way to accomplish the goal of equal pay? I don't personally think it is, but I am willing to hear counter arguments. 4) If I were unhappy about my current pay, I would approach it much differently. I would first go to my direct manager and tell that person I felt I deserved more comp. I would put together a list of reasons/accomplishments/justifications for this reason. I always keep a journal of what Im working on and try to send a list of "working on, completed, to do" so that I have my goals set properly. I send that on a regular basis to my manager(But I contract so its a bit different than an employee in this regard). 5) If you still feel like you are under compensated or underappreciated, go look for a job. Get an offer. Have leverage. You will either get a raise or a new job. Win Win Its frowned upon to do this often but I think its better behavior than starting a slack channel and asking people to post their salary.

pokstad 5y ago
> 3) Is complaining on Slack or posting your salary the best way to accomplish the goal of equal pay? I don't personally think it is, but I am willing to hear counter arguments. A slack channel is probably an efficient way to organize other employees for collective bargaining. There are already salary sharing sites like team blind and levels.fyi
- websap 5y ago
  Problem with levels.fyi and blind is that the data is not verified. I have higher confidence from internal systems.
  - zuhayeer 5y ago
    We actually do verify data on Levels.fyi – we collect verified proof documents such as W2s and offer letters to anchor the self-reported data points. We also have an exclusively verified data newsletter: https://levels.fyi/verified/ https://levels.fyi/verified/ Latest issue here: https://email.levels.fyi/t/v/75745b41-8636-4368-9891-3968c4a11b57/00000000-0000-4000-8000-000000000001 https://email.levels.fyi/t/v/75745b41-8636-4368-9891-3968c4a...
    - toephu2 5y ago
      Curious what is the motivation for people to submit verified offer letters to levels.fyi? What does the submitter get out of it?
      - zuhayeer 5y ago
        No direct incentive today. If they find value through the site (maybe for a negotiation), then they're free to contribute back and we've seen that be a pretty significant motive. Pretty altruistic, but people realize it helped them and it can help others in the future.
- S_A_P 5y ago
  To me this is an issue of scale. A small startup can hand pick talented people and pay them the same. Its pretty easy to manage employees and validate performance as you approach ~100 employees. Now scale that up to 50k employees. The talent pool isnt large enough to have only A players. Secondly in a large org you may not want some of the A players available because they have a crappy attitude. So what do you do? Hire B and C players and hope you can mentor them to a B+ A-. Im still not sure they deserve top tier pay, at least at first. If they demonstrate improvement then compensate them. Personally I think where companies go wrong with comp is that they stop rewarding top performers- especially in the IT/DevOps side. Ive worked at various companies where the sales and or traders that form the business often get large rewards just because they are on the income side of the house. IT and Development can at best increase efficiency and reduce costs but they are always just that, a cost. So short sighted managers eventually hit a wall and say no more comp increases. Eventually that person leaves when they find a better job, and they spend 50-100k recruiting a replacement that they have to pay what the existing employee wanted in the first place.
aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
>I dont necessarily agree with equal pay for each job title. It is absolutely doable though, just with a lot more job titles than what we have.
- hbn 5y ago
  Give everyone a unique job title, problem solved!
  - amelius 5y ago
    People generally have a very good idea about the job of their colleagues and how it compares to theirs.
  - jackson1442 5y ago
    Just got a role as a Software Engineer fc7530c3-5b68-4775-8174-5cd307c2509b. Excited to start next Monday!
paxys 5y ago
Everything you mentioned in 1-5 is inherently harder to do as an employee because there is a vast information asymmetry in the workplace. ICs work on a "need to know" basis while managers and HR know everything. How can you say for sure that you deserve more when you don't know how much others in your role are making? Why would your manager not simply say no and shut down the discussion? If they do offer you a 5% bump, maybe you actually deserve 15%? It's like playing poker with someone who sees all the cards. Sure they can't beat you if you have a royal flush, but on average they will always come out ahead. There's a reason there are laws mandating that your employer cannot stop you from talking about your salary. These discussions all serve to give you as an employee more data to use in negotiations, and for that they are incredibly effective.
- sroussey 5y ago
  If people are discussing their salaries for equality, then I think it’s fair for all other employees to comment on wether they are actually good and effective at their job. Let everyone vote on if they really deserve that salary—or a larger one, or a smaller one.
  - sagarm 5y ago
    The company makes the comp decisions via management, not the rank and file employees. They already have information about everyone's compensation. Sharing compensation information with your coworkers only puts you on a more even footing when negotiating with management. After all you are probably at least somewhat aware of your relative productivity. If you and the company disagree, you find another job where hopefully you are more in sync and everyone is happier.
    - sroussey 5y ago
      Oh, rank and file matter… 360s are based on that.
- S_A_P 5y ago
  I don't see why you can just find a new job and tell them to sod off. Sure its not always the right answer to leave and try to effect change from within. But if Apple is SOO stacked against the employees I am not sure why anyone wants to be there.
bastawhiz 5y ago
What if you didn't know you were being underpaid (say, by half)? Unless you knew that your salary was low compared to your peers, you would have no way to do #4 or #5 because you were blissfully unaware. What if you didn't know that all of the folks of your gender got paid 16% less than the folks on the team of the opposite gender? How would you know this and/or do something about it? It's not about being happy with your salary, it's about being treated fairly. How can you expect to be treated fairly without the data?

by S_A_P 5y ago

pokstad 5y ago

> 3) Is complaining on Slack or posting your salary the best way to accomplish the goal of equal pay? I don't personally think it is, but I am willing to hear counter arguments. A slack channel is probably an efficient way to organize other employees for collective bargaining. There are already salary sharing sites like team blind and levels.fyi

websap 5y ago
Problem with levels.fyi and blind is that the data is not verified. I have higher confidence from internal systems.
- zuhayeer 5y ago
  We actually do verify data on Levels.fyi – we collect verified proof documents such as W2s and offer letters to anchor the self-reported data points. We also have an exclusively verified data newsletter: https://levels.fyi/verified/ https://levels.fyi/verified/ Latest issue here: https://email.levels.fyi/t/v/75745b41-8636-4368-9891-3968c4a11b57/00000000-0000-4000-8000-000000000001 https://email.levels.fyi/t/v/75745b41-8636-4368-9891-3968c4a...
  - toephu2 5y ago
    Curious what is the motivation for people to submit verified offer letters to levels.fyi? What does the submitter get out of it?
    - zuhayeer 5y ago
      No direct incentive today. If they find value through the site (maybe for a negotiation), then they're free to contribute back and we've seen that be a pretty significant motive. Pretty altruistic, but people realize it helped them and it can help others in the future.
S_A_P 5y ago
To me this is an issue of scale. A small startup can hand pick talented people and pay them the same. Its pretty easy to manage employees and validate performance as you approach ~100 employees. Now scale that up to 50k employees. The talent pool isnt large enough to have only A players. Secondly in a large org you may not want some of the A players available because they have a crappy attitude. So what do you do? Hire B and C players and hope you can mentor them to a B+ A-. Im still not sure they deserve top tier pay, at least at first. If they demonstrate improvement then compensate them. Personally I think where companies go wrong with comp is that they stop rewarding top performers- especially in the IT/DevOps side. Ive worked at various companies where the sales and or traders that form the business often get large rewards just because they are on the income side of the house. IT and Development can at best increase efficiency and reduce costs but they are always just that, a cost. So short sighted managers eventually hit a wall and say no more comp increases. Eventually that person leaves when they find a better job, and they spend 50-100k recruiting a replacement that they have to pay what the existing employee wanted in the first place.

aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago

>I dont necessarily agree with equal pay for each job title. It is absolutely doable though, just with a lot more job titles than what we have.

hbn 5y ago
Give everyone a unique job title, problem solved!
- amelius 5y ago
  People generally have a very good idea about the job of their colleagues and how it compares to theirs.
- jackson1442 5y ago
  Just got a role as a Software Engineer fc7530c3-5b68-4775-8174-5cd307c2509b. Excited to start next Monday!

paxys 5y ago

Everything you mentioned in 1-5 is inherently harder to do as an employee because there is a vast information asymmetry in the workplace. ICs work on a "need to know" basis while managers and HR know everything. How can you say for sure that you deserve more when you don't know how much others in your role are making? Why would your manager not simply say no and shut down the discussion? If they do offer you a 5% bump, maybe you actually deserve 15%? It's like playing poker with someone who sees all the cards. Sure they can't beat you if you have a royal flush, but on average they will always come out ahead. There's a reason there are laws mandating that your employer cannot stop you from talking about your salary. These discussions all serve to give you as an employee more data to use in negotiations, and for that they are incredibly effective.

sroussey 5y ago
If people are discussing their salaries for equality, then I think it’s fair for all other employees to comment on wether they are actually good and effective at their job. Let everyone vote on if they really deserve that salary—or a larger one, or a smaller one.
- sagarm 5y ago
  The company makes the comp decisions via management, not the rank and file employees. They already have information about everyone's compensation. Sharing compensation information with your coworkers only puts you on a more even footing when negotiating with management. After all you are probably at least somewhat aware of your relative productivity. If you and the company disagree, you find another job where hopefully you are more in sync and everyone is happier.
  - sroussey 5y ago
    Oh, rank and file matter… 360s are based on that.
S_A_P 5y ago
I don't see why you can just find a new job and tell them to sod off. Sure its not always the right answer to leave and try to effect change from within. But if Apple is SOO stacked against the employees I am not sure why anyone wants to be there.

bastawhiz 5y ago

What if you didn't know you were being underpaid (say, by half)? Unless you knew that your salary was low compared to your peers, you would have no way to do #4 or #5 because you were blissfully unaware. What if you didn't know that all of the folks of your gender got paid 16% less than the folks on the team of the opposite gender? How would you know this and/or do something about it? It's not about being happy with your salary, it's about being treated fairly. How can you expect to be treated fairly without the data?