6 ms·

Exactly. This makes sense. USD 21 per user/month + bulk discount is nothing. If companies want to roll their own they can, but most won't. Docker Desktop adds

Exactly. This makes sense. USD 21 per user/month + bulk discount is nothing. If companies want to roll their own they can, but most won't. Docker Desktop adds a lot of value if only by removing the hassle for quick os-agnostic development.

eptcyka 5y ago
What is the value add for Docker Desktop? In a world where podman exists, what's the point of docker on dev machines anyway?
- trey-jones 5y ago
  Well, I hadn't heard of podman until now, and I imagine I'm not the only one. Does it consistently have functional parity with docker?
  - eric__cartman 5y ago
    I use it on my Fedora dev machine and it's pretty good. Still wouldn't replace a mission critical machine with it, as it isn't the primary target for docker containers to run on and it can break more easily.
    - hda111 5y ago
      It will break from time to time. But so does Docker Desktop. Neither Docker nor Podman are suitable for mission critical stuff. Their market is entirely dev machines and devs can fix in on their own.
      - robertlagrant 5y ago
        > Neither Docker nor Podman are suitable for mission critical stuff. Their market is entirely dev machines and devs can fix in on their own. Pretty sure they're used for more than that.
  - eptcyka 5y ago
    trey-jones, I apologize, but I cannot reply to you directly. The biggest showstopper for podman is that it runs entirely in userspace on Linux. Having said that, I use it as a drop-in replacement for Docker and it's only become better in the past year. This is somewhat irrelevant to the Docker Desktop product, as podman doesn't provide a nice packaged up solution, but you can use podman on Windows and Mac as long as you have a Linux host available, either as a guest VM or as a machine _elsewhere_ on the network, see [1]. I only use Linux if I can, and the ability to run images without having to run a daemon with root privileges is a very big bonus for me, but it might not be for you. Now I do wonder, how hard would it be to declare a minimal nixOS VM for running as one's podman host :) [1]: https://podman.io/getting-started/installation.html https://podman.io/getting-started/installation.html
    - Sebb767 5y ago
      > The biggest showstopper for podman is that it runs entirely in userspace on Linux. As I see it, that's the whole selling point. Need to have something with limited rights or build a container without root? Podman is the way to go.
      - eptcyka 5y ago
        I agree, what's missing is a nice VM appliance for macOS and Windows.
      - Frost1x 5y ago
        This is what singularity did in the HPC world (amongst other handy features): https://singularity.hpcng.org/ https://singularity.hpcng.org/
      - rhatdan 5y ago
        No true. Podman runs natively on a MAC, using a Linux VM for containers, just like Docker. `podman machine init` pulls down a VM, after which you can start running, developing, and building the same images that Docker and Kubernetes use. Just `brew install podman`. For Windows, Podman is available on many distributions in WSL2.
    - 5y ago
  - zerkten 5y ago
    It doesn't matter if it has parity of functionality when Docker has grown to the point where it has name recognition with enterprises and a sales team that can engage with these large customers. It needs to have parity in all other pseudo-layers (3rd party tool support, support plans, OS support, someone to sign a contract with, compliance tools, etc.) We know most of these go unused or have no real meaning to devs, but they unlock enterprise procurement. I believe podman has a linkage to RedHat which may actually bring all of the things that procurement want to hear, but the question is whether the door is open to RedHat, or not. Procurement departments can be fickle, preferring Oracle for everything or the other way round trying to eradicate Oracle while permitting a combination of others. It's all politics based on previous experiences and opinions in the end.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    It doesn't do caching, which disqualifies it from many use cases unfortunately: https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-build.1.html https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-build.1.htm... > --cache-from > Images to utilize as potential cache sources. Podman does not currently support caching so this is a NOOP.
- theptip 5y ago
  Docker for Mac includes a Kubernetes cluster that’s way better than minikube etc. Not sure the bare docker daemon VM wrapper has a defensible moat though. Maybe this does more in Windows?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- andyroid 5y ago
  How about the fact that not all, or even most, dev machines run Linux, which is the only platform podman supports?
  - oplav 5y ago
    I don't use podman, but a quick search shows that you can install podman on Linux, Windows, and MacOS. Are you referring to something else? https://podman.io/getting-started/installation https://podman.io/getting-started/installation
    - dralley 5y ago
      If you read the instructions, they basically say that you still need a Linux VM or WSL environment to run Podman in. Which makes it not a complete replacement for Docker desktop, which handles the VM for you. So OP isn't wrong.
      - Conan_Kudo 5y ago
        Podman 3.3 and up has `podman machine`, which is supposed to do this for you...
        kristjansson 5y ago
        Apparently it's already deprecated https://github.com/boot2podman/machine https://github.com/boot2podman/machine ?
        dralley 5y ago
        That's an unrelated tool named "podman-machine". "podman machine", as in the subcommand to "podman" proper, is not deprecated.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        So that's a couple hours for the first dev to make a list of WSL setup instructions or a VM template, and 5 minutes each for every dev after.
- gfiorav 5y ago
  The fact that you could do something alternative doesn’t mean it’s easy, supported, or streamlined for developers or company tech ops. I don’t think that thinking like an engineer will help you understand the value add here.

eptcyka 5y ago

What is the value add for Docker Desktop? In a world where podman exists, what's the point of docker on dev machines anyway?

trey-jones 5y ago
Well, I hadn't heard of podman until now, and I imagine I'm not the only one. Does it consistently have functional parity with docker?
- eric__cartman 5y ago
  I use it on my Fedora dev machine and it's pretty good. Still wouldn't replace a mission critical machine with it, as it isn't the primary target for docker containers to run on and it can break more easily.
  - hda111 5y ago
    It will break from time to time. But so does Docker Desktop. Neither Docker nor Podman are suitable for mission critical stuff. Their market is entirely dev machines and devs can fix in on their own.
    - robertlagrant 5y ago
      > Neither Docker nor Podman are suitable for mission critical stuff. Their market is entirely dev machines and devs can fix in on their own. Pretty sure they're used for more than that.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  trey-jones, I apologize, but I cannot reply to you directly. The biggest showstopper for podman is that it runs entirely in userspace on Linux. Having said that, I use it as a drop-in replacement for Docker and it's only become better in the past year. This is somewhat irrelevant to the Docker Desktop product, as podman doesn't provide a nice packaged up solution, but you can use podman on Windows and Mac as long as you have a Linux host available, either as a guest VM or as a machine _elsewhere_ on the network, see [1]. I only use Linux if I can, and the ability to run images without having to run a daemon with root privileges is a very big bonus for me, but it might not be for you. Now I do wonder, how hard would it be to declare a minimal nixOS VM for running as one's podman host :) [1]: https://podman.io/getting-started/installation.html https://podman.io/getting-started/installation.html
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    > The biggest showstopper for podman is that it runs entirely in userspace on Linux. As I see it, that's the whole selling point. Need to have something with limited rights or build a container without root? Podman is the way to go.
    - eptcyka 5y ago
      I agree, what's missing is a nice VM appliance for macOS and Windows.
    - Frost1x 5y ago
      This is what singularity did in the HPC world (amongst other handy features): https://singularity.hpcng.org/ https://singularity.hpcng.org/
    - rhatdan 5y ago
      No true. Podman runs natively on a MAC, using a Linux VM for containers, just like Docker. `podman machine init` pulls down a VM, after which you can start running, developing, and building the same images that Docker and Kubernetes use. Just `brew install podman`. For Windows, Podman is available on many distributions in WSL2.
  - 5y ago
- zerkten 5y ago
  It doesn't matter if it has parity of functionality when Docker has grown to the point where it has name recognition with enterprises and a sales team that can engage with these large customers. It needs to have parity in all other pseudo-layers (3rd party tool support, support plans, OS support, someone to sign a contract with, compliance tools, etc.) We know most of these go unused or have no real meaning to devs, but they unlock enterprise procurement. I believe podman has a linkage to RedHat which may actually bring all of the things that procurement want to hear, but the question is whether the door is open to RedHat, or not. Procurement departments can be fickle, preferring Oracle for everything or the other way round trying to eradicate Oracle while permitting a combination of others. It's all politics based on previous experiences and opinions in the end.
- viraptor 5y ago
  It doesn't do caching, which disqualifies it from many use cases unfortunately: https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-build.1.html https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-build.1.htm... > --cache-from > Images to utilize as potential cache sources. Podman does not currently support caching so this is a NOOP.
theptip 5y ago
Docker for Mac includes a Kubernetes cluster that’s way better than minikube etc. Not sure the bare docker daemon VM wrapper has a defensible moat though. Maybe this does more in Windows?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
andyroid 5y ago
How about the fact that not all, or even most, dev machines run Linux, which is the only platform podman supports?
- oplav 5y ago
  I don't use podman, but a quick search shows that you can install podman on Linux, Windows, and MacOS. Are you referring to something else? https://podman.io/getting-started/installation https://podman.io/getting-started/installation
  - dralley 5y ago
    If you read the instructions, they basically say that you still need a Linux VM or WSL environment to run Podman in. Which makes it not a complete replacement for Docker desktop, which handles the VM for you. So OP isn't wrong.
    - Conan_Kudo 5y ago
      Podman 3.3 and up has `podman machine`, which is supposed to do this for you...
      - kristjansson 5y ago
        Apparently it's already deprecated https://github.com/boot2podman/machine https://github.com/boot2podman/machine ?
        dralley 5y ago
        That's an unrelated tool named "podman-machine". "podman machine", as in the subcommand to "podman" proper, is not deprecated.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      So that's a couple hours for the first dev to make a list of WSL setup instructions or a VM template, and 5 minutes each for every dev after.
gfiorav 5y ago
The fact that you could do something alternative doesn’t mean it’s easy, supported, or streamlined for developers or company tech ops. I don’t think that thinking like an engineer will help you understand the value add here.