4 ms·

Non-programmers I know who have a personal desktop or laptop, it's always for gaming and/or piracy, and that's it. Everything with a "central role in [their] li

Non-programmers I know who have a personal desktop or laptop, it's always for gaming and/or piracy, and that's it. Everything with a "central role in [their] lives" is on their phones. Hell, I am a programmer, and those are the only reasons I have anything other than phones & tablets. Computers are for computer-focused nerd stuff, phones and tablets are much better for interacting with the real world thanks to their form factors and attached sensors & gadgets (home projects, hiking, gardening, learning, playing music, communicating, navigating, budgeting & bills, and so on).

arsome 5y ago
Tiny screens and keyboards on touch screens will never be the best for authoring activities, even for most of the activities you've listed, including communicating. Take my dad for example - not a tech guru, but works in Excel all the time, does renovation planning in Sketchup, etc. Imagine trying to use Excel on your phone to actually do something beyond passively viewing a document. Imagine trying to manipulate a model with any degree of precision. In my experience, anyone who needs to do significant authorship prefers real keyboards and larger screens. Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways.
- handrous 5y ago
  > Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways. They are really far from being "passive consumption and quick communication devices only". They're outstanding tools & aids for all kinds of things, most of which desktops and laptops are much worse for. What's with HN and labelling phones and tablets a "consumption devices"? It's wildly incorrect, to the point that it doesn't stand up to a moment's scrutiny.
  - orwin 5y ago
    They do are mostly consumption devices though. And passive ones at that. I use my phone for according, that's one active use. I really can't use it for planning hikes, but i guess i could (it just that after 4 days without sun, i'm always happy to have a map with me, so i'll have to plot the hike on the map anyway). I guess i could have two activ use. I use it to get alert when a combo high tide+wind+temperature+nothing in my schedule, but really, i coded this on my PC, run it through my server and just use my phone company API to receive a text message, so that's passive too. Research on wikipedia when i'm not sure about a name or something? Its consumption, but active consumption. All my other uses are passive or are about communication, and takes 80% of my time on the phone. Please xplain to me other uses? I guess i could use it for photography, but i don't really care.
    - handrous 5y ago
      - Photography and video (capture and editing—is a desktop nice for that? Sure, but the desktop can't also be your camera) - Art (sketching/"painting"/et c) - Music (tuner, recording, accompaniment, sheet-music display, composition, synth, metronome) - A vast array of essentially secretarial functions (especially for phones) that aid all kinds of activities (reminders, lists, taking dictation, voice-recording, calendar stuff, organizing information) - Construction, home projects, crafting of various sorts, and car repair (my phone is a: level, tape measure, notebook, calculator, flashlight, and reference manual) - Tablets are pretty good for writing, with a wireless keyboard. Arguably better than a laptop per se (because you can position the screen separately from the keyboard for better ergonomics), but worse than a desktop or docked laptop with a large screen. — Hiking, walking, outings in the city—navigation, wildlife & plant identification, ride hailing. I'm far from a phone/tablet power-user and I use them for all kinds of stuff. If I had to live with only one personal computing device—well, it'd have to be a phone, because they're indispensable for all kinds of interactions with third parties that assume you have a cell phone, but if I had two the other would be an iPad Pro, no question whatsoever. I'd feel crippled with only a laptop or desktop, for almost every task except tinkering with computers, which I care about doing outside of work less with each passing year. Most of the actual benefits of computing, in my personal life, as in, what makes my life easier, or helps me accomplish things, are better-available or only available on phones and tablets, and much of the rest is good-enough on those that I'd have trouble justifying a desktop or laptop just for those tasks. The main exception is fiddling with computers. Laptops and desktops are good for fiddling with computers (and not only that, to be clear—3D modeling and such remain much better there, too, for example—but that's really all I use them for, as far as productive use). I think I also have a fundamental problem with classification of things into "consumption" or "creation", because it seems like successful and good and actually useable by and useful to normal people applications of computing tend to end up in the former, even if it's in service of tasks that aren't "consumption", like, "oh, navigation is just consumption" or "payment reminders are just consumption" or "AR sensors automatically measuring things for you is just consumption". Isn't the point that computers do what we need without our having to write a program from scratch every time? Shit, I thought computers doing stuff for us with, ideally, no commands or effort required, was the whole point of what we all do (I mean, that and selling ads, obviously). For that matter, many of the benefits that a computer gives me over pencil and paper, for writing software, is "consumption"—that is, the output from tools I didn't write and often didn't even deliberately invoke, like code navigation, documentation look-up, hints, autocompletion, warnings, auto-formatting, et c. But those things are still tools aiding in creation. I don't like dismissing phones and tablets as "consumption devices" because they're not great for programming, when they are outstanding tools, far superior to a laptop or a desktop, for all kinds of other activities.
  - spideymans 5y ago
    A close friend of mine is an event coordinator. She shoots photos and videos on her iPhone. She edits the content directly on her iPhone and uploads the content to social media. And of course, the iPhone is her primary communication and organizational tool. She has a Mac, but it might as well be a $1,100 thin client for Google Docs, as that is the only productive thing she does on it. I have no doubt she'd get by fine with an iPad or Chromebook (although I wouldn't recommend either at this point).
- spideymans 5y ago
  >Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways. Passive consumption and quick communication is exactly what a lot of end users use PCs for. A tablet would be very viable for these users.
spideymans 5y ago
Every time I've used iPadOS I'm struck by how much more enjoyable it is than either Windows or OS X. The OS feels super fluid, and I can switch between the Apple Pencil, Magic Keyboard and multitouch seamlessly and without compromise. With iPadOS 15, Apple has essentially fixed the issues with multitasking as well. If it weren't for me being a programmer, and iPadOS file management sucking, I really don't see what would be in the way of me using an iPad full time.
- handrous 5y ago
  iOS/iPadOS is the only graphical OS I've used without constant bullshit performance issues affecting the UI (stuttering, pauses, unresponsiveness to input) and with notably low input latency, aside from BeOS and QNX (back when they still offered free Proton desktop copies of that for hobbyist users). MacOS and very stripped-down Linux or BSD desktops are the closest I can get to that experience on the desktop, these days, and even those aren't terribly close to being as good.
soylentcola 5y ago
I know this discussion has been going on for years now, but: I am not a programmer. I own a personal desktop and a personal laptop as well as a smartphone. I do use it for gaming and media (though, honestly, streaming unlicensed video is something I only do on an ancient laptop tucked away behind the TV. The desktop only holds my actual collection of music/movie rips). I also use my desktop to edit photos, videos, and music. I use my laptop to DJ for fun sometimes, or to take with me when I am away from home for an extended period. I like to experiment with digital art, 3d graphics, and interactive projection/light stuff. During the last year+ I used my personal desktop over my work-issued laptop to do live conferences with composited graphics and "real" green screen chromakey, as well as a vocal mic and other sources connected via USB interface. It was powerful and flexible enough that I could run all of the browser-based stuff, office applications, and the live streaming software without breaking a sweat on a single box. I could go on, but I imagine it's moot. I am perfectly aware that many, many people have no need for any of this stuff. But I personally like having a powerful and extendable computer that can be used for multiple tasks, often simultaneously. I can't imagine trying to do these things on an iPad or my phone (certainly not lots of them at once, or as effectively).
0xffff2 5y ago
This comment is mind-blowing to me. Every single one of the activities in parens is far better accomplished on a desktop with a real keyboard and a large monitor IMO. You really prefer to manage finances on your phone?
- handrous 5y ago
  > You really prefer to manage finances on your phone? The phone apps for my banks and credit cards are better than their sites. I'd want my reminders on there, anyway. If a "hey pay this bill" reminder comes in, I can take care of it as soon as I have a spare 20 seconds. I can check my balances in seconds, (almost) no matter where I am. Venmo's very handy and I don't think I've ever used it anywhere but my phone. Hell, I even do some (very, very much hobby-tier) trading on my phone. Basically all my actually-important personal stuff happens mobile-preferred or mobile-only. I'm not sitting down making spreadsheets on my phone, though, that's true—I do still like a desktop/laptop or an iPad + keyboard & mouse for office-productivity sorts of programs. > Every single one of the activities in parens is far better accomplished on a desktop with a real keyboard and a large monitor IMO ... which other ones? How?! "home projects, hiking, gardening, learning [...] communicating, navigating" phone wins at all of these, for most people, in some cases simply for the "it's easy to carry around" factor, but that's still a real issue. I'm not going to take a laptop hiking or use it to figure out how to get somewhere in an unfamiliar city. I'm not taking it out in the garden, I'm not taking it to the driveway to work on my car, I'm not dragging it under the sink while I fix a pipe, it can't measure things for me, it can't act as a level, or a flashlight, I'm not going to use it to take a picture of the label on the box of screws I need to buy more of when I run to the store later, or of the arrangement of something I'm about to disassemble, et c. I'm not going to sketch ideas on it (paper or iPad, for that, and if it's paper and it matters I'll capture the result with a phone camera). As for playing music, composing, that sort of thing: iPads fit great on a music stand, they're easy to carry around, the battery lasts a really long time so they're not fussy, they can attach to MIDI devices for all sorts of purposes, and iOS has excellent software available to use in that context. Phones and tablets can replace a metronome and electric tuners. They can play accompaniment or give you a beat. For some music-related tasks, yeah, you probably want a laptop or desktop, but the things an iPad's good at, it's really good at, and it can usually at least do OK at the rest.

arsome 5y ago

Tiny screens and keyboards on touch screens will never be the best for authoring activities, even for most of the activities you've listed, including communicating. Take my dad for example - not a tech guru, but works in Excel all the time, does renovation planning in Sketchup, etc. Imagine trying to use Excel on your phone to actually do something beyond passively viewing a document. Imagine trying to manipulate a model with any degree of precision. In my experience, anyone who needs to do significant authorship prefers real keyboards and larger screens. Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways.

handrous 5y ago
> Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways. They are really far from being "passive consumption and quick communication devices only". They're outstanding tools & aids for all kinds of things, most of which desktops and laptops are much worse for. What's with HN and labelling phones and tablets a "consumption devices"? It's wildly incorrect, to the point that it doesn't stand up to a moment's scrutiny.
- orwin 5y ago
  They do are mostly consumption devices though. And passive ones at that. I use my phone for according, that's one active use. I really can't use it for planning hikes, but i guess i could (it just that after 4 days without sun, i'm always happy to have a map with me, so i'll have to plot the hike on the map anyway). I guess i could have two activ use. I use it to get alert when a combo high tide+wind+temperature+nothing in my schedule, but really, i coded this on my PC, run it through my server and just use my phone company API to receive a text message, so that's passive too. Research on wikipedia when i'm not sure about a name or something? Its consumption, but active consumption. All my other uses are passive or are about communication, and takes 80% of my time on the phone. Please xplain to me other uses? I guess i could use it for photography, but i don't really care.
  - handrous 5y ago
    - Photography and video (capture and editing—is a desktop nice for that? Sure, but the desktop can't also be your camera) - Art (sketching/"painting"/et c) - Music (tuner, recording, accompaniment, sheet-music display, composition, synth, metronome) - A vast array of essentially secretarial functions (especially for phones) that aid all kinds of activities (reminders, lists, taking dictation, voice-recording, calendar stuff, organizing information) - Construction, home projects, crafting of various sorts, and car repair (my phone is a: level, tape measure, notebook, calculator, flashlight, and reference manual) - Tablets are pretty good for writing, with a wireless keyboard. Arguably better than a laptop per se (because you can position the screen separately from the keyboard for better ergonomics), but worse than a desktop or docked laptop with a large screen. — Hiking, walking, outings in the city—navigation, wildlife & plant identification, ride hailing. I'm far from a phone/tablet power-user and I use them for all kinds of stuff. If I had to live with only one personal computing device—well, it'd have to be a phone, because they're indispensable for all kinds of interactions with third parties that assume you have a cell phone, but if I had two the other would be an iPad Pro, no question whatsoever. I'd feel crippled with only a laptop or desktop, for almost every task except tinkering with computers, which I care about doing outside of work less with each passing year. Most of the actual benefits of computing, in my personal life, as in, what makes my life easier, or helps me accomplish things, are better-available or only available on phones and tablets, and much of the rest is good-enough on those that I'd have trouble justifying a desktop or laptop just for those tasks. The main exception is fiddling with computers. Laptops and desktops are good for fiddling with computers (and not only that, to be clear—3D modeling and such remain much better there, too, for example—but that's really all I use them for, as far as productive use). I think I also have a fundamental problem with classification of things into "consumption" or "creation", because it seems like successful and good and actually useable by and useful to normal people applications of computing tend to end up in the former, even if it's in service of tasks that aren't "consumption", like, "oh, navigation is just consumption" or "payment reminders are just consumption" or "AR sensors automatically measuring things for you is just consumption". Isn't the point that computers do what we need without our having to write a program from scratch every time? Shit, I thought computers doing stuff for us with, ideally, no commands or effort required, was the whole point of what we all do (I mean, that and selling ads, obviously). For that matter, many of the benefits that a computer gives me over pencil and paper, for writing software, is "consumption"—that is, the output from tools I didn't write and often didn't even deliberately invoke, like code navigation, documentation look-up, hints, autocompletion, warnings, auto-formatting, et c. But those things are still tools aiding in creation. I don't like dismissing phones and tablets as "consumption devices" because they're not great for programming, when they are outstanding tools, far superior to a laptop or a desktop, for all kinds of other activities.
- spideymans 5y ago
  A close friend of mine is an event coordinator. She shoots photos and videos on her iPhone. She edits the content directly on her iPhone and uploads the content to social media. And of course, the iPhone is her primary communication and organizational tool. She has a Mac, but it might as well be a $1,100 thin client for Google Docs, as that is the only productive thing she does on it. I have no doubt she'd get by fine with an iPad or Chromebook (although I wouldn't recommend either at this point).
spideymans 5y ago
>Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways. Passive consumption and quick communication is exactly what a lot of end users use PCs for. A tablet would be very viable for these users.

spideymans 5y ago

Every time I've used iPadOS I'm struck by how much more enjoyable it is than either Windows or OS X. The OS feels super fluid, and I can switch between the Apple Pencil, Magic Keyboard and multitouch seamlessly and without compromise. With iPadOS 15, Apple has essentially fixed the issues with multitasking as well. If it weren't for me being a programmer, and iPadOS file management sucking, I really don't see what would be in the way of me using an iPad full time.

handrous 5y ago
iOS/iPadOS is the only graphical OS I've used without constant bullshit performance issues affecting the UI (stuttering, pauses, unresponsiveness to input) and with notably low input latency, aside from BeOS and QNX (back when they still offered free Proton desktop copies of that for hobbyist users). MacOS and very stripped-down Linux or BSD desktops are the closest I can get to that experience on the desktop, these days, and even those aren't terribly close to being as good.

soylentcola 5y ago

I know this discussion has been going on for years now, but: I am not a programmer. I own a personal desktop and a personal laptop as well as a smartphone. I do use it for gaming and media (though, honestly, streaming unlicensed video is something I only do on an ancient laptop tucked away behind the TV. The desktop only holds my actual collection of music/movie rips). I also use my desktop to edit photos, videos, and music. I use my laptop to DJ for fun sometimes, or to take with me when I am away from home for an extended period. I like to experiment with digital art, 3d graphics, and interactive projection/light stuff. During the last year+ I used my personal desktop over my work-issued laptop to do live conferences with composited graphics and "real" green screen chromakey, as well as a vocal mic and other sources connected via USB interface. It was powerful and flexible enough that I could run all of the browser-based stuff, office applications, and the live streaming software without breaking a sweat on a single box. I could go on, but I imagine it's moot. I am perfectly aware that many, many people have no need for any of this stuff. But I personally like having a powerful and extendable computer that can be used for multiple tasks, often simultaneously. I can't imagine trying to do these things on an iPad or my phone (certainly not lots of them at once, or as effectively).

0xffff2 5y ago

This comment is mind-blowing to me. Every single one of the activities in parens is far better accomplished on a desktop with a real keyboard and a large monitor IMO. You really prefer to manage finances on your phone?

handrous 5y ago
> You really prefer to manage finances on your phone? The phone apps for my banks and credit cards are better than their sites. I'd want my reminders on there, anyway. If a "hey pay this bill" reminder comes in, I can take care of it as soon as I have a spare 20 seconds. I can check my balances in seconds, (almost) no matter where I am. Venmo's very handy and I don't think I've ever used it anywhere but my phone. Hell, I even do some (very, very much hobby-tier) trading on my phone. Basically all my actually-important personal stuff happens mobile-preferred or mobile-only. I'm not sitting down making spreadsheets on my phone, though, that's true—I do still like a desktop/laptop or an iPad + keyboard & mouse for office-productivity sorts of programs. > Every single one of the activities in parens is far better accomplished on a desktop with a real keyboard and a large monitor IMO ... which other ones? How?! "home projects, hiking, gardening, learning [...] communicating, navigating" phone wins at all of these, for most people, in some cases simply for the "it's easy to carry around" factor, but that's still a real issue. I'm not going to take a laptop hiking or use it to figure out how to get somewhere in an unfamiliar city. I'm not taking it out in the garden, I'm not taking it to the driveway to work on my car, I'm not dragging it under the sink while I fix a pipe, it can't measure things for me, it can't act as a level, or a flashlight, I'm not going to use it to take a picture of the label on the box of screws I need to buy more of when I run to the store later, or of the arrangement of something I'm about to disassemble, et c. I'm not going to sketch ideas on it (paper or iPad, for that, and if it's paper and it matters I'll capture the result with a phone camera). As for playing music, composing, that sort of thing: iPads fit great on a music stand, they're easy to carry around, the battery lasts a really long time so they're not fussy, they can attach to MIDI devices for all sorts of purposes, and iOS has excellent software available to use in that context. Phones and tablets can replace a metronome and electric tuners. They can play accompaniment or give you a beat. For some music-related tasks, yeah, you probably want a laptop or desktop, but the things an iPad's good at, it's really good at, and it can usually at least do OK at the rest.