7 ms·

> As the PC continues to play a more central role in our lives than ever before Does Microsoft really think this? I'm finding it's pretty common to meet people

by city41 5y ago

> As the PC continues to play a more central role in our lives than ever before Does Microsoft really think this? I'm finding it's pretty common to meet people who don't own a PC at all. They just use their phone and possibly a tablet.

nightcracker 5y ago
Yes they think this, but not in the way you or I think about it. At least this is my admittedly cynical take. There is a strong push across tech to erase the concept of a Personal Computer, and make everything function like a tablet. Calling tablets/phones PCs is part of this, by muddying the water, as well as attempts like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfR_Jj4grZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfR_Jj4grZE Interfaces and functionality keep being dumbed and locked down like they are on tablets and phones. Microsoft and Apple are watering at the mouth for the day when the true personal computer is gone and every computing device is a walled garden where every user uses their pre-approved apps doing only the pre-approved tasks, preferably as thin clients into their controlled cloud.
- bitwize 5y ago
  And millions if not billions of users will be perfectly content with that -- especially if it means they won't have to deal with the hassle of keeping their computing devices clean, updated, and malware-free on their own. Nerds mewling about "general purpose computing" do not understand the market, and do not want to.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    I think it's fine that a lot of what we've traditionally used a PC for is now available in more appliance like devices for people. But I also think that personal computing is a revolutionary tool and absolutely should exist for people inclined to use it. Problem is, pretty much everyone who used to make PCs would much rather burn them to the ground so they can sell appliances instead.
    - bitwize 5y ago
      Even here on Hackernews, even among people who computer for a living, in their daily lives total control over their machines is a distant second to "It Just Works". Part of Just Working, in this day and age, involves Just Updating Automatically and Just Protecting You From Malware, the latter of which involves tight restrictions on what can be run, and what it can access when it does run. Companies want to sell appliances because appliances are more useful to the average person and therefore make more money. We're all going to have to reckon with the Gramscian heartbreak that most of the proletariat don't really want a revolution -- just less hassle in their lives.
      - JohnFen 5y ago
        > art of Just Working, in this day and age, involves Just Updating Automatically Except that automatic (or forced) updating totally breaks the "Just working" mantra. I've learned to dread every update that comes down the pike. It's quite a change from the old days when updates were something that you generally looked forward to (and could ignore if the particular update made your experience worse in some important way).
iKevinShah 5y ago
> "PCs are going to be like trucks," Jobs said. "They are still going to be around." However, he said, only "one out of x people will need them." (https://www.cnet.com/news/steve-jobs-at-d8-post-pc-era-is-nigh/ https://www.cnet.com/news/steve-jobs-at-d8-post-pc-era-is-ni...) This feels true more and more.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  And it's like the people who make trucks don't get it and keep trying to make their trucks more like cars to appeal to the car market.
  - justwalt 5y ago
    Right. It’s been a bit frustrating to see this in Gnome, but at least I can use another theme to shrink things back down a bit.
    - 29083011397778 5y ago
      And to be fair to Gnome, their apps run on devices ranging from my multi-monitor PC to my Pinephone. Being able to scale reasonably well is, in my case, a massive boon.
      - samtheDamned 5y ago
        I recently got a 2 in 1 laptop and gnome has been much better than any other desktop I've used so far. Beyond the touch friendly UI for touch itself, it's also been good for touchpad use and its touchpad gestures are very fluid. I still use KDE on desktop but for any laptop I'd recommend GNOME for sure.
        input_sh 5y ago
        As someone who owned only 2-in-1 laptops for years now, virtual keyboards are the bane of my use case. Microsoft's is the best one (with Gnome's at a distant second), but that doesn't mean it's good. This is quite odd considering they've acquired Swiftkey, which is among the first 3 apps I install on a fresh Android.
handrous 5y ago
Non-programmers I know who have a personal desktop or laptop, it's always for gaming and/or piracy, and that's it. Everything with a "central role in [their] lives" is on their phones. Hell, I am a programmer, and those are the only reasons I have anything other than phones & tablets. Computers are for computer-focused nerd stuff, phones and tablets are much better for interacting with the real world thanks to their form factors and attached sensors & gadgets (home projects, hiking, gardening, learning, playing music, communicating, navigating, budgeting & bills, and so on).
- arsome 5y ago
  Tiny screens and keyboards on touch screens will never be the best for authoring activities, even for most of the activities you've listed, including communicating. Take my dad for example - not a tech guru, but works in Excel all the time, does renovation planning in Sketchup, etc. Imagine trying to use Excel on your phone to actually do something beyond passively viewing a document. Imagine trying to manipulate a model with any degree of precision. In my experience, anyone who needs to do significant authorship prefers real keyboards and larger screens. Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways.
  - handrous 5y ago
    > Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways. They are really far from being "passive consumption and quick communication devices only". They're outstanding tools & aids for all kinds of things, most of which desktops and laptops are much worse for. What's with HN and labelling phones and tablets a "consumption devices"? It's wildly incorrect, to the point that it doesn't stand up to a moment's scrutiny.
    - orwin 5y ago
      They do are mostly consumption devices though. And passive ones at that. I use my phone for according, that's one active use. I really can't use it for planning hikes, but i guess i could (it just that after 4 days without sun, i'm always happy to have a map with me, so i'll have to plot the hike on the map anyway). I guess i could have two activ use. I use it to get alert when a combo high tide+wind+temperature+nothing in my schedule, but really, i coded this on my PC, run it through my server and just use my phone company API to receive a text message, so that's passive too. Research on wikipedia when i'm not sure about a name or something? Its consumption, but active consumption. All my other uses are passive or are about communication, and takes 80% of my time on the phone. Please xplain to me other uses? I guess i could use it for photography, but i don't really care.
ziml77 5y ago
PC sales were dying out, but they shot back up in 2020 as people needed them for working or learning from home.

by city41 5y ago

nightcracker 5y ago

Yes they think this, but not in the way you or I think about it. At least this is my admittedly cynical take. There is a strong push across tech to erase the concept of a Personal Computer, and make everything function like a tablet. Calling tablets/phones PCs is part of this, by muddying the water, as well as attempts like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfR_Jj4grZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfR_Jj4grZE Interfaces and functionality keep being dumbed and locked down like they are on tablets and phones. Microsoft and Apple are watering at the mouth for the day when the true personal computer is gone and every computing device is a walled garden where every user uses their pre-approved apps doing only the pre-approved tasks, preferably as thin clients into their controlled cloud.

bitwize 5y ago
And millions if not billions of users will be perfectly content with that -- especially if it means they won't have to deal with the hassle of keeping their computing devices clean, updated, and malware-free on their own. Nerds mewling about "general purpose computing" do not understand the market, and do not want to.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I think it's fine that a lot of what we've traditionally used a PC for is now available in more appliance like devices for people. But I also think that personal computing is a revolutionary tool and absolutely should exist for people inclined to use it. Problem is, pretty much everyone who used to make PCs would much rather burn them to the ground so they can sell appliances instead.
  - bitwize 5y ago
    Even here on Hackernews, even among people who computer for a living, in their daily lives total control over their machines is a distant second to "It Just Works". Part of Just Working, in this day and age, involves Just Updating Automatically and Just Protecting You From Malware, the latter of which involves tight restrictions on what can be run, and what it can access when it does run. Companies want to sell appliances because appliances are more useful to the average person and therefore make more money. We're all going to have to reckon with the Gramscian heartbreak that most of the proletariat don't really want a revolution -- just less hassle in their lives.
    - JohnFen 5y ago
      > art of Just Working, in this day and age, involves Just Updating Automatically Except that automatic (or forced) updating totally breaks the "Just working" mantra. I've learned to dread every update that comes down the pike. It's quite a change from the old days when updates were something that you generally looked forward to (and could ignore if the particular update made your experience worse in some important way).

iKevinShah 5y ago

> "PCs are going to be like trucks," Jobs said. "They are still going to be around." However, he said, only "one out of x people will need them." (https://www.cnet.com/news/steve-jobs-at-d8-post-pc-era-is-nigh/ https://www.cnet.com/news/steve-jobs-at-d8-post-pc-era-is-ni...) This feels true more and more.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
And it's like the people who make trucks don't get it and keep trying to make their trucks more like cars to appeal to the car market.
- justwalt 5y ago
  Right. It’s been a bit frustrating to see this in Gnome, but at least I can use another theme to shrink things back down a bit.
  - 29083011397778 5y ago
    And to be fair to Gnome, their apps run on devices ranging from my multi-monitor PC to my Pinephone. Being able to scale reasonably well is, in my case, a massive boon.
    - samtheDamned 5y ago
      I recently got a 2 in 1 laptop and gnome has been much better than any other desktop I've used so far. Beyond the touch friendly UI for touch itself, it's also been good for touchpad use and its touchpad gestures are very fluid. I still use KDE on desktop but for any laptop I'd recommend GNOME for sure.
      - input_sh 5y ago
        As someone who owned only 2-in-1 laptops for years now, virtual keyboards are the bane of my use case. Microsoft's is the best one (with Gnome's at a distant second), but that doesn't mean it's good. This is quite odd considering they've acquired Swiftkey, which is among the first 3 apps I install on a fresh Android.

handrous 5y ago

Non-programmers I know who have a personal desktop or laptop, it's always for gaming and/or piracy, and that's it. Everything with a "central role in [their] lives" is on their phones. Hell, I am a programmer, and those are the only reasons I have anything other than phones & tablets. Computers are for computer-focused nerd stuff, phones and tablets are much better for interacting with the real world thanks to their form factors and attached sensors & gadgets (home projects, hiking, gardening, learning, playing music, communicating, navigating, budgeting & bills, and so on).

arsome 5y ago
Tiny screens and keyboards on touch screens will never be the best for authoring activities, even for most of the activities you've listed, including communicating. Take my dad for example - not a tech guru, but works in Excel all the time, does renovation planning in Sketchup, etc. Imagine trying to use Excel on your phone to actually do something beyond passively viewing a document. Imagine trying to manipulate a model with any degree of precision. In my experience, anyone who needs to do significant authorship prefers real keyboards and larger screens. Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways.
- handrous 5y ago
  > Phones and tablets are passive consumption and quick communication devices only, the exact opposite of what we should be encouraging in many ways. They are really far from being "passive consumption and quick communication devices only". They're outstanding tools & aids for all kinds of things, most of which desktops and laptops are much worse for. What's with HN and labelling phones and tablets a "consumption devices"? It's wildly incorrect, to the point that it doesn't stand up to a moment's scrutiny.
  - orwin 5y ago
    They do are mostly consumption devices though. And passive ones at that. I use my phone for according, that's one active use. I really can't use it for planning hikes, but i guess i could (it just that after 4 days without sun, i'm always happy to have a map with me, so i'll have to plot the hike on the map anyway). I guess i could have two activ use. I use it to get alert when a combo high tide+wind+temperature+nothing in my schedule, but really, i coded this on my PC, run it through my server and just use my phone company API to receive a text message, so that's passive too. Research on wikipedia when i'm not sure about a name or something? Its consumption, but active consumption. All my other uses are passive or are about communication, and takes 80% of my time on the phone. Please xplain to me other uses? I guess i could use it for photography, but i don't really care.

ziml77 5y ago

PC sales were dying out, but they shot back up in 2020 as people needed them for working or learning from home.