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My 2 pennies: Living in a secular society where religion plays a reduced part on the individual, compared with 50 years ago. People now fill the gaps with oth

My 2 pennies: Living in a secular society where religion plays a reduced part on the individual, compared with 50 years ago. People now fill the gaps with other banners to fly and differentiate themselves with.

adrianb 5y ago
I agree, religion offers simple ways to classify actions as good or bad. Following the church teachings or priest's guidance was enough to make an individual confident they are a good person, doing good things. Meanwhile, in real life, everything is complex, few things are clearly good or bad, everything has advantages and disadvantages. People need a simple compass to distinguish good and bad. It seems the "political beliefs" are taking up that space in a secular society.
- snarf21 5y ago
  That is the narrative of the religious but most don't go to learn about what they are doing wrong. They go to find out what other people are doing wrong so they can feel superior and rail against the sin of others. Religion has always been a weapon, it is just easier to wield now.
  - qsort 5y ago
    I'm not religious myself, but it is true that if you're going to treat something other than religion as though it were a religion, it's almost always going to be much worse. Most religious prescriptions are either common sense (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not bear false witness) or recipes to avoid social chaos (thou shalt not commit adultery). Of course religion has also been wielded as a weapon, and I'm the first in line to cherish western secularization, but I don't see it as an inherently socially harmful force.
  - seneca 5y ago
    > That is the narrative of the religious but most don't go to learn about what they are doing wrong. They go to find out what other people are doing wrong so they can feel superior and rail against the sin of others. And this is the narrative of the Extremely Online Atheist. Of the hundreds of religious people I know (though I'm not myself), maybe two fit that description. You are noticing outliers and assuming they represent the entire group.
    - snarf21 5y ago
      No, I grew up going to church three times a week. I believe in God but not religion for the reasons mentioned. All my family is religious. They post the most hateful judgmental things on FB. My one cousin is gay and her direct family won't talk to her because she is a "sinner". I don't see the so called Christians acting like Christ and when they do it is mostly on spreading the word. Even the churches and mission that offer free food around here do so only with prayers and sermons as part of the experience.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        I think it depends on which Church, which cultural groups, what generation etc. I know the "judgemental Christian" cliché, but I also know it to be very much an American WASP (specifically Evangelical, I think?) stereotype.
        snarf21 5y ago
        To be fair, I know nothing about Christianity outside of the US. Just speaking of those I've interacted with. I'm not sure it is only Evangelicals. Catholics won't even let other Christians take communion. You may say that is theological but it seems pretty judgmental to me, "you are a real Christian unless you are an RC". I won't get into the other institutionalized atrocities wrought at the hands of the RC church.
        KptMarchewa 5y ago
        Catholic Church in Poland does not differ much.
  - ShrigmaMale 5y ago
    Christianity is pretty clear on pulling out the log in one's own eye. Since everybody alive is imperfect we shouldn't spend time criticizing others, beyond something like a friend offering advice or parent correcting a child, or protecting people from others. It also is clear it is not our place to judge others. That is the place of the Father (if Jewish) or the Son (if Christian).
    - crateless 5y ago
      Christianity as practiced is a different matter altogether. The ideal fails when it comes into contact with intrinsic human motivations such as desire for power, status, wealth e.t.c
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > Christianity as practiced is a different matter altogether. The ideal fails when it comes into contact with intrinsic human motivations such as desire for power, status, wealth e.t.c No one (sensible) said following it was easy.
- tenpies 5y ago
  > I agree, religion offers simple ways to classify actions as good or bad. Following the church teachings or priest's guidance was enough to make an individual confident they are a good person, doing good things. The unfortunate thing is that this sums up the current state of religious education because we've had a generation that was poorly taught, who then taught the next generation. Now the generation we are raising is not even being taught - which might actually be a good thing since those that are interested will seek that knowledge for themselves instead of being turned off by poor educators. But for Catholic moral theology for example, it's generally quite complex and exceedingly individual for all but the most black and white situations. What is a sin for me, may not be for you. "Sin" is also in itself a catchall for a whole subset of types of sin - and they're almost all relative to the individual because it will depend on the extent of your free choice, your understanding, and the gravity of the situation. People think it's the 10 Commandments, but that's really just the one thing someone who was poorly educated would remember. And it's quite tragic because it's actually a whole journey that begins with natural law. Then slowly, over generations, you get small revelations of what God's moral teaching is until you reach a big moment with the revelation of Mosaic law (part of which are the 10 Commandments). Then generations later, you have Jesus drop by and quite literally say that because you were too hard of heart, that was the law revealed to you, but that now you are ready for a higher moral standard. Even if one has no interest in Catholicism, it's fascinating to watch from the perspective of the evolution of a moral code over generations. And then you have to consider that Catholic moral theology is just the foundation for Catholic social teaching, which is exactly what is taught to deal with the everyday complex issues where it may not even be a question of "is this a sin?", but rather, "how should I act?".
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    This would be more convincing if Catholics - actually religious people in general - were known for exemplary morals. That's very much not the case. Religion is demonstrably useless when it comes to practical morality, because it's not in any sense a coherent and stable moral system. It's really about crafting individual and tribal justifications for arbitrary behaviours supported by various power hierarchies. Some may be considered moral, while others are clearly damaging, hateful, and abhorrent. It's impossible to deny this without denying centuries of religious history. There's far more of value in psychological research than there is any religious teaching. Even though it's just getting started, it's a far more coherent body of knowledge than the random mess of conflicting and contradictory opinions and justifications that the religious industries have generated.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Simple like ‘love your enemies’
woodruffw 5y ago
Without taking on the challenge of falsifying your claim (I think it’d be pretty hard), I see things a little differently. A key moment in the development of the current conservative mindset was Goldwater’s 1964 campaign, nearly 60 years ago by now. Goldwater (and every Republican who succeeded him) has used the same rhetorical lynchpins: the media cannot be trusted, it’s the coastal elites against the heartland, &c. An entire generation of conservatives grew up with Goldwater conservativism as their frame of reference, and cheered when the FCC’s Fairness Doctrine was undone. The last 30 or so years of American conservative politics are on a relatively straight track from there: radio politics, the Contract With America, an increasing dependency on evangelical voters and a corresponding shift towards their social issues, &c. But note: this started when religion was a much larger part of American life. So, at least to my mind, America’s (relatively modest) secular shift is not the primary mover here.
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  I can see no reason aside from lazy malevolence to downvote your comment woodruffw.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    I appreciate that. It’s discouraging, but that’s life.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Goldwater himself wasn't a fan of the increasing courting of religious folks in the 80s, nor their policies, and leaned libertarian as the years passed.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    Goldwater himself might not have been a fan of courting the religious right, but the conservative tradition that began with him certainly does! I didn’t mean to rest the blame solely on him; only to paint a more varied picture than “the decline of religion is to blame.”
x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
This doesn't make much sense. Especially since 50 years ago, your race mattered infinitely more than whatever religion or denomination you belonged to.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  There was a lot of all-white communities in the USA back then, though. In those, people would search for other ways to think less of their neighbors. AFAIK Kennedy as the first Catholic president was considered somewhat of an outsider.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  I think I recall your name from Reddit. But while race definitely mattered (and more), religion mattered in-race as well. Same thing for casteism in India. Religion matters, but so does caste even within Hinduism.
  - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
    In the white community, I think race matters more Protestant vs. Catholic, especially during the 1920s-1950s (When Kennedy was elected, folks would say "Put your hope in the Pope" because he was Catholic). While in the black community, we simply don't have that much of a Catholic or Muslim population for such in-group conflicts. Yes, I'm the same low-agreeableness person from Reddit.
nostrademons 5y ago
Also don't forget the role of economic growth & opportunity. America is a country where millions of immigrants have put aside their cultural differences for the pursuit of money. Note that in areas where there is still a reasonable chance of getting rich - coastal California, for example, or NYC - people are still willing to put aside their differences to get rich. At least among the people who are actually getting rich. Chinatown or the Sunset in SF have all sorts of AAPI hate crimes, while 50 miles south in Cupertino, Chinese, Indians, and white people work side-by-side in cube farms while enjoying their Apple stock.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  We work side by side in downtown SF too. OK, in side by side video windows for now...
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    "For now"? Judging by the average comment on this message board one gets the impression that working downtown at a software job is a thing of the past.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "Note that in areas where there is still a reasonable chance of getting rich - coastal California, for example, or NYC..." Where are these opportunities? Do people actually think they can get rich and then achieve it in any meaningful numbers?
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >Where are these opportunities If the stats on where most immigrants from foreign countries wind up residing are any indication, not in coastal California or NYC. The people who move to SV or NYC to get rich on tech or finance are generally Americans born to parents who are college educated or credentialed professionals, and you can see this in the demographics of the companies where these people are working and getting rich.
motioncuty 5y ago
Are they banners or core values and beliefs about the world. Values are pretty important things to align with.
fidesomnes 5y ago
I just met a woman who is convinced about the original sin of America and everyone in it. This is a mind boggling corrosive influence on young women that should be eradicated like a disease instead of a cure.
staysafeanon 5y ago
"Where Christianity has left a moral and religious vacuum in the wake of its collapse, we are now seeing the construction of a new social and moral orthodoxy to fill this void — in short, a new religion. It's not hard to see why: religious orthodoxy brings with it the highly intoxicating and addictive frameworks of unambiguously delineated good and evil, right and wrong, us versus them, and the equally addictive sense of moral righteousness that follows from it. In short, many people have a psychological dependence on religion; they need such a thing."[0] [0] The Rise of Newchurch (https://www.devever.net/~hl/newchurch https://www.devever.net/~hl/newchurch)
grillvogel 5y ago
it's truly strange. now people define themselves by which corporations are their favorite and which funkopops they own
xyzzy21 5y ago
Religion never left - it merely have new names like "science" (actually "scientism" and not really science), political ideologies, activist movements, etc. All are forms of religion in practice, value and effect though everyone is loath to admit it.
- mcphage 5y ago
  > Religion never left - it merely have new names like "science" What is your definition of "religion"?

adrianb 5y ago

I agree, religion offers simple ways to classify actions as good or bad. Following the church teachings or priest's guidance was enough to make an individual confident they are a good person, doing good things. Meanwhile, in real life, everything is complex, few things are clearly good or bad, everything has advantages and disadvantages. People need a simple compass to distinguish good and bad. It seems the "political beliefs" are taking up that space in a secular society.

snarf21 5y ago
That is the narrative of the religious but most don't go to learn about what they are doing wrong. They go to find out what other people are doing wrong so they can feel superior and rail against the sin of others. Religion has always been a weapon, it is just easier to wield now.
- qsort 5y ago
  I'm not religious myself, but it is true that if you're going to treat something other than religion as though it were a religion, it's almost always going to be much worse. Most religious prescriptions are either common sense (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not bear false witness) or recipes to avoid social chaos (thou shalt not commit adultery). Of course religion has also been wielded as a weapon, and I'm the first in line to cherish western secularization, but I don't see it as an inherently socially harmful force.
- seneca 5y ago
  > That is the narrative of the religious but most don't go to learn about what they are doing wrong. They go to find out what other people are doing wrong so they can feel superior and rail against the sin of others. And this is the narrative of the Extremely Online Atheist. Of the hundreds of religious people I know (though I'm not myself), maybe two fit that description. You are noticing outliers and assuming they represent the entire group.
  - snarf21 5y ago
    No, I grew up going to church three times a week. I believe in God but not religion for the reasons mentioned. All my family is religious. They post the most hateful judgmental things on FB. My one cousin is gay and her direct family won't talk to her because she is a "sinner". I don't see the so called Christians acting like Christ and when they do it is mostly on spreading the word. Even the churches and mission that offer free food around here do so only with prayers and sermons as part of the experience.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      I think it depends on which Church, which cultural groups, what generation etc. I know the "judgemental Christian" cliché, but I also know it to be very much an American WASP (specifically Evangelical, I think?) stereotype.
      - snarf21 5y ago
        To be fair, I know nothing about Christianity outside of the US. Just speaking of those I've interacted with. I'm not sure it is only Evangelicals. Catholics won't even let other Christians take communion. You may say that is theological but it seems pretty judgmental to me, "you are a real Christian unless you are an RC". I won't get into the other institutionalized atrocities wrought at the hands of the RC church.
      - KptMarchewa 5y ago
        Catholic Church in Poland does not differ much.
- ShrigmaMale 5y ago
  Christianity is pretty clear on pulling out the log in one's own eye. Since everybody alive is imperfect we shouldn't spend time criticizing others, beyond something like a friend offering advice or parent correcting a child, or protecting people from others. It also is clear it is not our place to judge others. That is the place of the Father (if Jewish) or the Son (if Christian).
  - crateless 5y ago
    Christianity as practiced is a different matter altogether. The ideal fails when it comes into contact with intrinsic human motivations such as desire for power, status, wealth e.t.c
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > Christianity as practiced is a different matter altogether. The ideal fails when it comes into contact with intrinsic human motivations such as desire for power, status, wealth e.t.c No one (sensible) said following it was easy.
tenpies 5y ago
> I agree, religion offers simple ways to classify actions as good or bad. Following the church teachings or priest's guidance was enough to make an individual confident they are a good person, doing good things. The unfortunate thing is that this sums up the current state of religious education because we've had a generation that was poorly taught, who then taught the next generation. Now the generation we are raising is not even being taught - which might actually be a good thing since those that are interested will seek that knowledge for themselves instead of being turned off by poor educators. But for Catholic moral theology for example, it's generally quite complex and exceedingly individual for all but the most black and white situations. What is a sin for me, may not be for you. "Sin" is also in itself a catchall for a whole subset of types of sin - and they're almost all relative to the individual because it will depend on the extent of your free choice, your understanding, and the gravity of the situation. People think it's the 10 Commandments, but that's really just the one thing someone who was poorly educated would remember. And it's quite tragic because it's actually a whole journey that begins with natural law. Then slowly, over generations, you get small revelations of what God's moral teaching is until you reach a big moment with the revelation of Mosaic law (part of which are the 10 Commandments). Then generations later, you have Jesus drop by and quite literally say that because you were too hard of heart, that was the law revealed to you, but that now you are ready for a higher moral standard. Even if one has no interest in Catholicism, it's fascinating to watch from the perspective of the evolution of a moral code over generations. And then you have to consider that Catholic moral theology is just the foundation for Catholic social teaching, which is exactly what is taught to deal with the everyday complex issues where it may not even be a question of "is this a sin?", but rather, "how should I act?".
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  This would be more convincing if Catholics - actually religious people in general - were known for exemplary morals. That's very much not the case. Religion is demonstrably useless when it comes to practical morality, because it's not in any sense a coherent and stable moral system. It's really about crafting individual and tribal justifications for arbitrary behaviours supported by various power hierarchies. Some may be considered moral, while others are clearly damaging, hateful, and abhorrent. It's impossible to deny this without denying centuries of religious history. There's far more of value in psychological research than there is any religious teaching. Even though it's just getting started, it's a far more coherent body of knowledge than the random mess of conflicting and contradictory opinions and justifications that the religious industries have generated.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Simple like ‘love your enemies’

woodruffw 5y ago

Without taking on the challenge of falsifying your claim (I think it’d be pretty hard), I see things a little differently. A key moment in the development of the current conservative mindset was Goldwater’s 1964 campaign, nearly 60 years ago by now. Goldwater (and every Republican who succeeded him) has used the same rhetorical lynchpins: the media cannot be trusted, it’s the coastal elites against the heartland, &c. An entire generation of conservatives grew up with Goldwater conservativism as their frame of reference, and cheered when the FCC’s Fairness Doctrine was undone. The last 30 or so years of American conservative politics are on a relatively straight track from there: radio politics, the Contract With America, an increasing dependency on evangelical voters and a corresponding shift towards their social issues, &c. But note: this started when religion was a much larger part of American life. So, at least to my mind, America’s (relatively modest) secular shift is not the primary mover here.

jonnycomputer 5y ago
I can see no reason aside from lazy malevolence to downvote your comment woodruffw.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  I appreciate that. It’s discouraging, but that’s life.
mixmastamyk 5y ago
Goldwater himself wasn't a fan of the increasing courting of religious folks in the 80s, nor their policies, and leaned libertarian as the years passed.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Goldwater himself might not have been a fan of courting the religious right, but the conservative tradition that began with him certainly does! I didn’t mean to rest the blame solely on him; only to paint a more varied picture than “the decline of religion is to blame.”

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago

This doesn't make much sense. Especially since 50 years ago, your race mattered infinitely more than whatever religion or denomination you belonged to.

inglor_cz 5y ago
There was a lot of all-white communities in the USA back then, though. In those, people would search for other ways to think less of their neighbors. AFAIK Kennedy as the first Catholic president was considered somewhat of an outsider.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rejectedandsad 5y ago
I think I recall your name from Reddit. But while race definitely mattered (and more), religion mattered in-race as well. Same thing for casteism in India. Religion matters, but so does caste even within Hinduism.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  In the white community, I think race matters more Protestant vs. Catholic, especially during the 1920s-1950s (When Kennedy was elected, folks would say "Put your hope in the Pope" because he was Catholic). While in the black community, we simply don't have that much of a Catholic or Muslim population for such in-group conflicts. Yes, I'm the same low-agreeableness person from Reddit.

nostrademons 5y ago

Also don't forget the role of economic growth & opportunity. America is a country where millions of immigrants have put aside their cultural differences for the pursuit of money. Note that in areas where there is still a reasonable chance of getting rich - coastal California, for example, or NYC - people are still willing to put aside their differences to get rich. At least among the people who are actually getting rich. Chinatown or the Sunset in SF have all sorts of AAPI hate crimes, while 50 miles south in Cupertino, Chinese, Indians, and white people work side-by-side in cube farms while enjoying their Apple stock.

BurningFrog 5y ago
We work side by side in downtown SF too. OK, in side by side video windows for now...
- chitowneats 5y ago
  "For now"? Judging by the average comment on this message board one gets the impression that working downtown at a software job is a thing of the past.
giantg2 5y ago
"Note that in areas where there is still a reasonable chance of getting rich - coastal California, for example, or NYC..." Where are these opportunities? Do people actually think they can get rich and then achieve it in any meaningful numbers?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >Where are these opportunities If the stats on where most immigrants from foreign countries wind up residing are any indication, not in coastal California or NYC. The people who move to SV or NYC to get rich on tech or finance are generally Americans born to parents who are college educated or credentialed professionals, and you can see this in the demographics of the companies where these people are working and getting rich.

motioncuty 5y ago

Are they banners or core values and beliefs about the world. Values are pretty important things to align with.

fidesomnes 5y ago

I just met a woman who is convinced about the original sin of America and everyone in it. This is a mind boggling corrosive influence on young women that should be eradicated like a disease instead of a cure.

staysafeanon 5y ago

"Where Christianity has left a moral and religious vacuum in the wake of its collapse, we are now seeing the construction of a new social and moral orthodoxy to fill this void — in short, a new religion. It's not hard to see why: religious orthodoxy brings with it the highly intoxicating and addictive frameworks of unambiguously delineated good and evil, right and wrong, us versus them, and the equally addictive sense of moral righteousness that follows from it. In short, many people have a psychological dependence on religion; they need such a thing."[0] [0] The Rise of Newchurch (https://www.devever.net/~hl/newchurch https://www.devever.net/~hl/newchurch)

grillvogel 5y ago

it's truly strange. now people define themselves by which corporations are their favorite and which funkopops they own

xyzzy21 5y ago

Religion never left - it merely have new names like "science" (actually "scientism" and not really science), political ideologies, activist movements, etc. All are forms of religion in practice, value and effect though everyone is loath to admit it.

mcphage 5y ago
> Religion never left - it merely have new names like "science" What is your definition of "religion"?