4 ms·

My general rule is: Technology shouldn’t initiate communications with me, ever. Ever ever. I call the shots, software needs to do what I tell it, and only wha

My general rule is: Technology shouldn’t initiate communications with me, ever. Ever ever. I call the shots, software needs to do what I tell it, and only what I tell it. People can communicate with me through technology, so things like text messages/calls/emails triggering alerts, that’s fine. But an app, OS, website, etc should never try to initiate any sort of communication or alert on its own (only in response to something I’m doing.) Software breaks this rule so often, but every single time, it’s inexcusable. I don’t care about your newsletter. I don’t care about “trying out” whatever shit you’re trying to push on me. No I don’t want “tips”. No I don’t want to “see what’s new” (if I did, I’d seek out the thing in your app that tells me what’s new.) I don’t want my first run in the Music app to consist of this big modal dialog that prevents me from doing anything until I press a big “Start Listening” button. Every single one of these product decisions likely came from some PM who made the case for it citing “it really increases engagement in A/B tests” or “studies show users don’t know about <feature> unless we tell them”, but every one of those PM’s should be removed from decision making until they learn to behave. The software you make should be a tool for the user, not a tool for you to juice your metrics. Apple software has gotten worse, and worse, and worse with this over the years, so much that I’d consider abandoning the entire ecosystem if it wasn’t likely just as bad on the other side.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
devoutsalsa 5y ago
The one I hate is the little bang red warning on settings to set up Apple Pay on my iPad. I’m never going to buy anything on my iPad!
- jrockway 5y ago
  > I’m never going to buy anything on my iPad! Not if you don't set it up! (I kid, of course. It always made me mad how iOS was supposed to be the OS that respects your attention and just silently does its job, but first-party apps are worse than third-party apps. Steve Jobs died and that idea went right out the window. Now it's more like "100% of iPad users have lots of disposable income that we could get 30% of!")
- arepublicadoceu 5y ago
  > The one I hate is the little bang red warning on settings to set up Apple Pay on my iPad. I’m never going to buy anything on my iPad! Pro tip: you can remove that red warning by clicking to set up your Apple Pay and immediately returning to the previous screen without actually setting up anything. (Yeah, it's ridiculous that you have to do that but it is what it is)
MisterSandman 5y ago
What about software updates? (not forcing you to download, just telling you that one exists) Or update to an app?
- Applejinx 5y ago
  Can't speak for the original poster, but I do not trust that software updates won't simply break something. I get that the intention is to FIX something, but it seems very trusting to assume that something else won't just break. If I depend on some software and I'm using it without issue, I probably don't want to just randomly change it when I'm not experiencing a reason to change it.
alberth 5y ago
What about fraud alerts? Eg your bank notifying you that strange activity is happening on your account, or someone is trying to buy a car using your credit?
- zapzupnz 5y ago
  That's an alert from "people", for a stretched definition of what "people" means. A bank is full of people who (purportedly) represent your interests, so the notification is from their fraud team, not a machine. Per se.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    It's from a machine (the bank's computer), on behalf of people (the bank). Just like the a notification about the new Safari :(
    - ninkendo 5y ago
      I think the difference in magnitude turns it into a difference in kind. Fraud alerts are something I asked to have sent to me, so to me it’s more of a tool doing its job. A tool I chose to use. Similarly if I decide I wanted to be alerted about severe weather, a notification isn’t just “technology contacting me”, it’s a tool I use, performing its expected function.
      - d0gbread 5y ago
        It seems like your rule is a lot of complexity all to say you don't like push notifications, toasts, or modals that are advertisements.
    - zapzupnz 5y ago
      Of course it's from the computer. It's an electronic message. What a weird and pointless distinction. It's still programmed to do that on behalf of the bank's fraud department, a service done by people at the bank that you engage to protect your money. It's a service. Not like the Safari notification. It helps you in no way, it's not a service. It's an ad.
booleandilemma 5y ago
My all-time favorite is the Windows “How likely are you to recommend Windows to a friend or colleague?” popup. Imagine if our kitchen appliances asked us questions like this.
- version_five 5y ago
  This is some "net promoter score" cult thing that somebody thinks is an appropriate metric to be judged on. The metric is dumb enough even if it could be accurately measured, but it's also one of the noisiest possible things you can sample, especially when your method is to ask it in an offensive and annoying way that interrupts someone who is trying to work. I use office over google docs for various business reasons, but I have so much ill will towards Microsoft from how annoying they are with notifications. It's like they think buying their software is a license to pester you.
  - aroman 5y ago
    NPS can be useful in certain contexts, especially when communicating in large organizations, even though it can be noisy and is usually annoying to be nagged about as an end-user.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Oh, you must be right, I hadn't made the connection to the NPS. It is particularly unfit for Windows, because of the extreme network effects that have solidified Windows dominant position. Nobody really chooses Windows, it's just the default. If anything, people will wonder, "wait, I can choose something else?"
Taek 5y ago
Once exception: security related incidents. Critical software upgrades, fraud alerts, someone tried to access my account, credit card expired, severe weather warning, that sort of stuff.
- ninkendo 5y ago
  In each of these cases (except software upgrades), you’ve set up such a notification (or did implicitly through a contractual agreement) yourself because you want to be notified in such an event. This isn’t so much technology reaching out to you, as a tool doing its job (which happens to involve notifications.) Software updates, I don’t want notifications about either. At best give me a badge icon in the settings app or app store that I can check on my own. I’ll dig in and figure out what the badge means.
MavropaliasG 5y ago
Bad on the other side? Which side are you talking about? Surely not the Linux ecosystem
- ninkendo 5y ago
  The Windows ecosystem (in the case of computers) and Google ecosystem (in the case of phones). I’d consider using Linux if I didn’t have to use macOS for my day job, but I recall it not being much better (KDE would still put up tips on startup, I still remember getting lots of first-run popups the last time I tried GNOME3 too…)
n4bz0r 5y ago
> My general rule is: Technology shouldn’t initiate communications with me, ever. > I’d consider abandoning the entire ecosystem if it wasn’t likely just as bad on the other side. It seems to me that you are not in position to set the rules.
- ninkendo 5y ago
  I set the rules of what software I choose to use, and when it breaks them (and I have a choice), I stop using that software. Pretty easy really.
  - n4bz0r 5y ago
    I am the boss! If someone defies me and pisses on my face, I deal with him! I smash him into the ground! Unless I'm not stronk enough; then I take no action except handing out the loot! TREMBLE, MORTALS!
CoolGuySteve 5y ago
The one that bugs me the most is when apps, particularly ones from Google, get an update and decide to get in your face about it. Like get a message, tap the notification, and instead of being able to reply to it, suddenly the app is all "HEY CHECK OUT THESE FEATURES IN THIS 7-STEP MODAL DIALOG". Like just fuck off already, I'm just trying to reply to something and I really don't give a shit about some PM's useless make-work feature.
wsc981 5y ago
>My general rule is: Technology shouldn’t initiate communications with me, ever. Ever ever. I call the shots, software needs to do what I tell it, and only what I tell it. I'm with you. I get very annoyed even by Apple these days that often spam me about updating my system or some software. I do realise there's probably a system setting somewhere to disable these notifications, but I feel it should be the default. Also what annoys me is when software 'secretly' updates in the background. I want to initiate software updates whenever it suits me best. Again, can probably be disabled on macOS or iOS, but I feel it should be the default. Also Apple's Music subscription service ads in the Music app get to my nerve. I don't care for it and don't want to see it ever ... As a dev I hate all the new security stuff that is being added to macOS, especially notarisation. It's becoming more and more of a hassle to publish apps on macOS and it already was painful enough with the certificates and profiles and such. I do understand that all these annoyances for me are of benefit to the average user These kinds of issues are part of what makes me annoyed with macOS and iOS these days. In the future I do hope to switch away to another platform (likely BSD, perhaps Linux) & perhaps keep a few old Macs around for legacy gaming and just having a nice, simpler environment to play in every now and then. For reference: I've been a 'hard-core' Macintosh user since System 6.0 [0]. --- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_6
phailhaus 5y ago
> I don’t want my first run in the Music app to consist of this big modal dialog This is my biggest pet peeve, and it comes down to imperative vs declarative UI design. Imperative design attempts to guess what you know or want, like when an app insists on taking you through a "tour" of the app or telling you "where to start" the first time you use it. Good design is declarative, not imperative. If there's a big empty space waiting for me to select something, then it should tell me why its empty. That's useful whether I'm a first-time user or someone who just hasn't used the tool in a while. But don't guess. Nine times out of ten you're wrong, and the remaining time it's still useless because I'll forget five minutes after I dismiss your little popup.
- mmis1000 5y ago
  That probably depends on targets. The Z generation is used to explore the UI by themselves. For example, if they saw something partially reveal on the left, they try to swipe it / click it / or press left arrow if you are using a remote control. But previous generation isn't really used to it. My mom sometimes(actually happens a lot) have difficulties for such ui and asks me how to use it.(she don't really realize she can just go left to reveal it) The declarative design here outright didn't work as far as I see. A touring could be really helpful for such recipients. I guess there should be a global toggle somewhere to change between `Just let me explore` and `Tell me how to use it`. And if one day you no longer need tours on new software, you can just toggle it off yourself.
u385639 5y ago
I can understand that there are places/screens/experiences where you'd like some peace and quiet but the idea that communication with technology should as a "general rule" not "ever. ever ever" be anything but unidirectional from user to device is absurd.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  No, it isn't. Many of us do not want our devices talking to us without really good reason
- ninkendo 5y ago
  I’d welcome a challenge to this rule or trying to find an exception to it! I actually think about this a lot. I try to keep mental track for every notification I get and they’re all either: 1. A person contacting me 2. The response for some action I took, and is typically just a chime or small transient notification (a download finished, etc) 3. Something that shouldn’t exist at all (“try new feature” dialogs, etc) 4. The grey area: Something I wanted to know, but could have been implemented in a better way. The “other way” things should be implemented in case 4 varies, but here are some examples: - Xcode shouldn’t alert me with a modal popup when something fails, it should just put the failed status in a multi-item notification drawer that can be ignored - That thing telling me my password is incorrect shouldn’t be a modal popup, but just a small status text on the UI I’m already using - The “tips”/“what’s new in X” information should be in the app’s menu in a section that can have some level of prominence so long as it’s reasonable (bold, highlighted, etc, but never in a dialog that I have to dismiss to continue using your app.)
  - u385639 5y ago
    I was clumsily pointing out the oddity of saying "ever" in a rule ostensibly "general" aka with exceptions. Otherwise, it just looks like a preference to me. Why should (3) never exist at all? I've definitely found features that have existed for a long time in a product and wished I somehow new earlier. Does it mean they could have designed it better? Perhaps. An app driven nudge is a hammer, sure, but it's not a sacred violation.
aroman 5y ago
The line between "user initiated" and "app initiated" is not always that clear, but I agree with your general sentiment. As some examples to consider: explicit one-to-many communications, actions that might warrant a notification where users explicitly dispatching communication would be cumbersome or undesirable (think mobile games).
- ninkendo 5y ago
  One-to-many communications should generally fall in the category of “person communicating with me through technology”, which is ok by my standard. Then my anger turns to the person who may be doing the one-to-many communications inappropriately (analogous to shouting in the library or sending junk mail) and not the software. > actions that might warrant a notification where users explicitly dispatching communication would be cumbersome or undesirable (think mobile games). huh? Why is my mobile game sending me notifications? No thanks. (Sounds like a perfect example of something I’d hate TBH.) Mario RUN did this once. Sent me a push notification to… play more Mario RUN. I uninstalled it.
  - aroman 5y ago
    If you're playing a mobile game with friends, presumably you care when it's your turn. I certainly do. I wasn't thinking of single-player games, I agree there's basically no reason those should be sending push notifications.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

devoutsalsa 5y ago

The one I hate is the little bang red warning on settings to set up Apple Pay on my iPad. I’m never going to buy anything on my iPad!

jrockway 5y ago
> I’m never going to buy anything on my iPad! Not if you don't set it up! (I kid, of course. It always made me mad how iOS was supposed to be the OS that respects your attention and just silently does its job, but first-party apps are worse than third-party apps. Steve Jobs died and that idea went right out the window. Now it's more like "100% of iPad users have lots of disposable income that we could get 30% of!")
arepublicadoceu 5y ago
> The one I hate is the little bang red warning on settings to set up Apple Pay on my iPad. I’m never going to buy anything on my iPad! Pro tip: you can remove that red warning by clicking to set up your Apple Pay and immediately returning to the previous screen without actually setting up anything. (Yeah, it's ridiculous that you have to do that but it is what it is)

MisterSandman 5y ago

What about software updates? (not forcing you to download, just telling you that one exists) Or update to an app?

Applejinx 5y ago
Can't speak for the original poster, but I do not trust that software updates won't simply break something. I get that the intention is to FIX something, but it seems very trusting to assume that something else won't just break. If I depend on some software and I'm using it without issue, I probably don't want to just randomly change it when I'm not experiencing a reason to change it.

alberth 5y ago

What about fraud alerts? Eg your bank notifying you that strange activity is happening on your account, or someone is trying to buy a car using your credit?

zapzupnz 5y ago
That's an alert from "people", for a stretched definition of what "people" means. A bank is full of people who (purportedly) represent your interests, so the notification is from their fraud team, not a machine. Per se.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  It's from a machine (the bank's computer), on behalf of people (the bank). Just like the a notification about the new Safari :(
  - ninkendo 5y ago
    I think the difference in magnitude turns it into a difference in kind. Fraud alerts are something I asked to have sent to me, so to me it’s more of a tool doing its job. A tool I chose to use. Similarly if I decide I wanted to be alerted about severe weather, a notification isn’t just “technology contacting me”, it’s a tool I use, performing its expected function.
    - d0gbread 5y ago
      It seems like your rule is a lot of complexity all to say you don't like push notifications, toasts, or modals that are advertisements.
  - zapzupnz 5y ago
    Of course it's from the computer. It's an electronic message. What a weird and pointless distinction. It's still programmed to do that on behalf of the bank's fraud department, a service done by people at the bank that you engage to protect your money. It's a service. Not like the Safari notification. It helps you in no way, it's not a service. It's an ad.

booleandilemma 5y ago

My all-time favorite is the Windows “How likely are you to recommend Windows to a friend or colleague?” popup. Imagine if our kitchen appliances asked us questions like this.

version_five 5y ago
This is some "net promoter score" cult thing that somebody thinks is an appropriate metric to be judged on. The metric is dumb enough even if it could be accurately measured, but it's also one of the noisiest possible things you can sample, especially when your method is to ask it in an offensive and annoying way that interrupts someone who is trying to work. I use office over google docs for various business reasons, but I have so much ill will towards Microsoft from how annoying they are with notifications. It's like they think buying their software is a license to pester you.
- aroman 5y ago
  NPS can be useful in certain contexts, especially when communicating in large organizations, even though it can be noisy and is usually annoying to be nagged about as an end-user.
- epistasis 5y ago
  Oh, you must be right, I hadn't made the connection to the NPS. It is particularly unfit for Windows, because of the extreme network effects that have solidified Windows dominant position. Nobody really chooses Windows, it's just the default. If anything, people will wonder, "wait, I can choose something else?"

Taek 5y ago

Once exception: security related incidents. Critical software upgrades, fraud alerts, someone tried to access my account, credit card expired, severe weather warning, that sort of stuff.

ninkendo 5y ago
In each of these cases (except software upgrades), you’ve set up such a notification (or did implicitly through a contractual agreement) yourself because you want to be notified in such an event. This isn’t so much technology reaching out to you, as a tool doing its job (which happens to involve notifications.) Software updates, I don’t want notifications about either. At best give me a badge icon in the settings app or app store that I can check on my own. I’ll dig in and figure out what the badge means.

MavropaliasG 5y ago

Bad on the other side? Which side are you talking about? Surely not the Linux ecosystem

ninkendo 5y ago
The Windows ecosystem (in the case of computers) and Google ecosystem (in the case of phones). I’d consider using Linux if I didn’t have to use macOS for my day job, but I recall it not being much better (KDE would still put up tips on startup, I still remember getting lots of first-run popups the last time I tried GNOME3 too…)

n4bz0r 5y ago

> My general rule is: Technology shouldn’t initiate communications with me, ever. > I’d consider abandoning the entire ecosystem if it wasn’t likely just as bad on the other side. It seems to me that you are not in position to set the rules.

ninkendo 5y ago
I set the rules of what software I choose to use, and when it breaks them (and I have a choice), I stop using that software. Pretty easy really.
- n4bz0r 5y ago
  I am the boss! If someone defies me and pisses on my face, I deal with him! I smash him into the ground! Unless I'm not stronk enough; then I take no action except handing out the loot! TREMBLE, MORTALS!

CoolGuySteve 5y ago

The one that bugs me the most is when apps, particularly ones from Google, get an update and decide to get in your face about it. Like get a message, tap the notification, and instead of being able to reply to it, suddenly the app is all "HEY CHECK OUT THESE FEATURES IN THIS 7-STEP MODAL DIALOG". Like just fuck off already, I'm just trying to reply to something and I really don't give a shit about some PM's useless make-work feature.

wsc981 5y ago

>My general rule is: Technology shouldn’t initiate communications with me, ever. Ever ever. I call the shots, software needs to do what I tell it, and only what I tell it. I'm with you. I get very annoyed even by Apple these days that often spam me about updating my system or some software. I do realise there's probably a system setting somewhere to disable these notifications, but I feel it should be the default. Also what annoys me is when software 'secretly' updates in the background. I want to initiate software updates whenever it suits me best. Again, can probably be disabled on macOS or iOS, but I feel it should be the default. Also Apple's Music subscription service ads in the Music app get to my nerve. I don't care for it and don't want to see it ever ... As a dev I hate all the new security stuff that is being added to macOS, especially notarisation. It's becoming more and more of a hassle to publish apps on macOS and it already was painful enough with the certificates and profiles and such. I do understand that all these annoyances for me are of benefit to the average user These kinds of issues are part of what makes me annoyed with macOS and iOS these days. In the future I do hope to switch away to another platform (likely BSD, perhaps Linux) & perhaps keep a few old Macs around for legacy gaming and just having a nice, simpler environment to play in every now and then. For reference: I've been a 'hard-core' Macintosh user since System 6.0 [0]. --- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_6

phailhaus 5y ago

> I don’t want my first run in the Music app to consist of this big modal dialog This is my biggest pet peeve, and it comes down to imperative vs declarative UI design. Imperative design attempts to guess what you know or want, like when an app insists on taking you through a "tour" of the app or telling you "where to start" the first time you use it. Good design is declarative, not imperative. If there's a big empty space waiting for me to select something, then it should tell me why its empty. That's useful whether I'm a first-time user or someone who just hasn't used the tool in a while. But don't guess. Nine times out of ten you're wrong, and the remaining time it's still useless because I'll forget five minutes after I dismiss your little popup.

mmis1000 5y ago
That probably depends on targets. The Z generation is used to explore the UI by themselves. For example, if they saw something partially reveal on the left, they try to swipe it / click it / or press left arrow if you are using a remote control. But previous generation isn't really used to it. My mom sometimes(actually happens a lot) have difficulties for such ui and asks me how to use it.(she don't really realize she can just go left to reveal it) The declarative design here outright didn't work as far as I see. A touring could be really helpful for such recipients. I guess there should be a global toggle somewhere to change between `Just let me explore` and `Tell me how to use it`. And if one day you no longer need tours on new software, you can just toggle it off yourself.

u385639 5y ago

I can understand that there are places/screens/experiences where you'd like some peace and quiet but the idea that communication with technology should as a "general rule" not "ever. ever ever" be anything but unidirectional from user to device is absurd.

tomc1985 5y ago
No, it isn't. Many of us do not want our devices talking to us without really good reason
ninkendo 5y ago
I’d welcome a challenge to this rule or trying to find an exception to it! I actually think about this a lot. I try to keep mental track for every notification I get and they’re all either: 1. A person contacting me 2. The response for some action I took, and is typically just a chime or small transient notification (a download finished, etc) 3. Something that shouldn’t exist at all (“try new feature” dialogs, etc) 4. The grey area: Something I wanted to know, but could have been implemented in a better way. The “other way” things should be implemented in case 4 varies, but here are some examples: - Xcode shouldn’t alert me with a modal popup when something fails, it should just put the failed status in a multi-item notification drawer that can be ignored - That thing telling me my password is incorrect shouldn’t be a modal popup, but just a small status text on the UI I’m already using - The “tips”/“what’s new in X” information should be in the app’s menu in a section that can have some level of prominence so long as it’s reasonable (bold, highlighted, etc, but never in a dialog that I have to dismiss to continue using your app.)
- u385639 5y ago
  I was clumsily pointing out the oddity of saying "ever" in a rule ostensibly "general" aka with exceptions. Otherwise, it just looks like a preference to me. Why should (3) never exist at all? I've definitely found features that have existed for a long time in a product and wished I somehow new earlier. Does it mean they could have designed it better? Perhaps. An app driven nudge is a hammer, sure, but it's not a sacred violation.

aroman 5y ago

The line between "user initiated" and "app initiated" is not always that clear, but I agree with your general sentiment. As some examples to consider: explicit one-to-many communications, actions that might warrant a notification where users explicitly dispatching communication would be cumbersome or undesirable (think mobile games).

ninkendo 5y ago
One-to-many communications should generally fall in the category of “person communicating with me through technology”, which is ok by my standard. Then my anger turns to the person who may be doing the one-to-many communications inappropriately (analogous to shouting in the library or sending junk mail) and not the software. > actions that might warrant a notification where users explicitly dispatching communication would be cumbersome or undesirable (think mobile games). huh? Why is my mobile game sending me notifications? No thanks. (Sounds like a perfect example of something I’d hate TBH.) Mario RUN did this once. Sent me a push notification to… play more Mario RUN. I uninstalled it.
- aroman 5y ago
  If you're playing a mobile game with friends, presumably you care when it's your turn. I certainly do. I wasn't thinking of single-player games, I agree there's basically no reason those should be sending push notifications.