9 ms·

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but Org-mode for Emacs [1] is just great, and fits very well to the requirements: - Source of truth: these are text fi

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but Org-mode for Emacs [1] is just great, and fits very well to the requirements: - Source of truth: these are text files, so any of git, nextcloud, syncthing etc. will do. - Consistent interface: using emacs might be tough on mobile, but there are some pretty good web interfaces for it [2]. I personally use Orgzly [3] and syntching on my Android - Standard protocols: custom scripting does anything. ical is pretty easy to handle, not sure about webdav. - FOSS: check - Multiple calendars: yep, via Org agenda [4] - Subtask support: As deep as you can go - Custom logic: via emacs scripts (or some creativity if you're using other clients) - Markdown notes: yes, minimal differences between org mode and markdown [1] https://orgmode.org/ https://orgmode.org/ [2] https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web [3] https://www.orgzly.com https://www.orgzly.com [4] https://orgmode.org/manual/Agenda-Views.html https://orgmode.org/manual/Agenda-Views.html

yewenjie 5y ago
Yes. Org mode is fantastic. However, some limitations/ drawbacks. - org-agenda is slow and completely unusable if you have hundreds of org files. - despite multiple half-baked efforts there is still no easy-to-use parser and pretty printer for the lanuguage. I'm not even asking for 100% of the syntax, 20% capability of t he built-in org-element API with good documentatiom will accomplish 80% of the requirements. - no easy way to integrate calendars and org-agenda with something like a calDav server.
- all2 5y ago
  That last point is what gets me. I very much want my org-agenda to be linked to the calendar app on my phone. No easy way to do this, so far.
- blackbear_ 5y ago
  > no easy way to integrate calendars and org-agenda with something like a calDav server. It would be great to have something like this. I have a system which can at least handle invitations to events by means of a python script that convert iCal files to Org-style headers. It is triggered automatically via inotify so that every time a new iCal file appears into a specific folder it is appended automatically to an Org file. Now I simply save the .ics that comes attached to event invitation emails to have the time slot booked in my Org agenda automatically.
- zeorin 5y ago
  I've only recently started using org and haven't yet tried this, but I did research CalDav interop ahead of time and found https://github.com/dengste/org-caldav https://github.com/dengste/org-caldav
- utrack 5y ago
  JFYI, there's an excellent package org-ql which works quite nice with many org files. It has org-ql-view built in, which works like org-agenda. (https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql)
- ubermonkey 5y ago
  Agenda slowness is killing me. I need a solution, but honestly I feel like my next band-aid is probably an upgraded computer. I create a new org file for each client, plus a few extras, and so at this point I have (ls -al | grep org$ | wc -l) 86 such files. I could speed it up by doing more archiving, but it's useful to have history for long-running engagements in the main file vs the _archive files. I may decide to move moribund/closed engagement files to a subfolder for cold-storage, but then there's the out-of-sight, out-of-mind problem. OTOH, I never ever print from Org, and I use Exchange for calendaring, so the other two points aren't a problem for me, at least.
  - gnubison 5y ago
    By the way, when ls isn’t printing to a terminal it defaults to one file name a line, so 'ls -a' would work fine here (and arguably be a bit more correct).
    - ubermonkey 5y ago
      Good tip, but these days I'm so long removed from daily terminal incantations that I mostly take a "kitchen sink and just make it work" approach.
solarkraft 5y ago
You can also use Org Mode files with Logseq (Roam-style outliner), which is the only client for it I know that doesn’t suck for my usage. https://logseq.com/ https://logseq.com/
roland35 5y ago
I love org mode and use it all the time, but I still occasionally blow up my file with inadvertent vim commands! Yes I know I am a weirdo for using eVil mode :) The most common mistake I make is having caps lock on and hitting J a bunch which merges all the lines together.
- blackbear_ 5y ago
  Yes, using evil mode in emacs puts you in the weird position of being scoffed at by both vim users and emacs users ;) > The most common mistake I make is having caps lock on and hitting J a bunch which merges all the lines together. Oh that happened to me as well one day, it was catastrophic! I did not realize I hit J on a folded header (which joined all lines in that section) before saving and quitting at the end of the day. I only realized the mess on the next day. I wrote a blog post [1] on how I solved it, if it sounds interesting. [1] https://e-dorigatti.github.io/phd/2020/08/27/lost-notes.html https://e-dorigatti.github.io/phd/2020/08/27/lost-notes.html
- neutronicus 5y ago
  Ugh I make that mistake with code constantly I fly into a panic because "U" doesn't do anything and Spacemacs binds "K" to some sort of manual lookup Deeply stressful experience
  - gnubison 5y ago
    What is K supposed to do other than a manual lookup? That’s what it does in vim and neovim.
- mkesper 5y ago
  I found <https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs> doom-emacs to be very pleasant to use. Loading times are so much better than spacemacs. And using an external binary for updating etc. really helps.
y7 5y ago
On iOS I recently found beorg [1] for org-mode, and so far I'm happy with it. I've got it set up to connect through WebDAV to a GitFS mount on my homeserver, so that I automatically get versioning. I sync to the Git backend on my desktop. 1. https://beorg.app/ https://beorg.app/
- ashton314 5y ago
  beorg is amazing. Changed my life.
- ubermonkey 5y ago
  BeOrg seems to assume a sort of interaction with Org that is different than my usage, and so I've never found it very useful AT ALL. This is frustrating enough that I'm always kinda low-key evaluating other systems, like Obsidian, that have a better story for mobile.
Groxx 5y ago
Last time I was looking into org-mode, I ran across an extremely frequent refrain of "there are no 3rd party tools for it, because there is no spec". And then I looked for apps that'd work with it anyway, and came up shockingly short, though some of the most-trivial things generally worked. (orgzly is the one I ended up with. it's pretty good, definitely recommended for anyone doing this) Has that improved? It seems fine if you do everything from the CLI (or similar), but emacs is a little difficult to use on a phone.
- nanna 5y ago
  What sort of third party tools were you after? And when did you have a go?
  - Groxx 5y ago
    ~3 years ago, and literally anything. I was trying to see if org-mode could serve as a long-term store of info (i.e. decades), so multi-OS and "likely to have other working implementations" or "can re-build by hand if necessary" was critical. Since then I've just settled on a pile of markdown/commonmark files that interlink when desired, and I'm pretty happy with that. Everything essentially just said "use emacs, that's the only implementation and the only spec". So I tried orgzly for a bit (it's handy), but ultimately decided it's a "hard no" for things with only one impl.
- tgbugs 5y ago
  We're working on a formal grammar and a test suite that can be used to specify expected behavior. See the linked mailing list thread [0] for pointers to some of the interested parties. 0. https://orgmode.org/list/CA+G3_POBAB1QX1Zv8q9sjFh4KHUHVmaNXp3XO7__6eoSdXKoyA@mail.gmail.com/ https://orgmode.org/list/CA+G3_POBAB1QX1Zv8q9sjFh4KHUHVmaNXp...
  - happy-dude 5y ago
    I just wanted to chime in and mention that the folks who wrote organice[0] also came up with an EBNF grammar[1] for org-mode. Also of tangential interest is that work is actively being done on creating a tree-sitter version[2] of the grammar, although that work is not public (yet). [0] https://github.com/200ok-ch/organice https://github.com/200ok-ch/organice [1] https://github.com/200ok-ch/org-parser/blob/master/resources/org.ebnf https://github.com/200ok-ch/org-parser/blob/master/resources... [2] https://github.com/kristijanhusak/orgmode.nvim/issues/31#issuecomment-889875621 https://github.com/kristijanhusak/orgmode.nvim/issues/31#iss...
baby 5y ago
I tried so many times to get into it, but the barrier of entry is really high I find. Learning a number of shortcuts and keyboard flows just to take notes is not a very good idea IMO.
- edoceo 5y ago
  I'm in a terminal all day. But I point and click for calendar, notes, etc. I can't remember all the syntax and shortcuts. But the 'Create Event's button is generally easy to find. I've fed these to a custom NewTab extension and that has been a huge win for me. I make a new tab like every five minutes so it's always visible.
- euroderf 5y ago
  I picked up emacs long ago simply because it was modeless (i.e. not vi), but I haven't advanced beyond to-top, to-bottom, search, replace, save, quit. As others have eloquently said here, the terminology and the odd key bindings are an impediment.
tomc1985 5y ago
Yeah but then I'd have to use emacs
hnrj95 5y ago
seconded a million times. to me, nothing rivals org and its ecosystem. i’ll give org-roam a shout too, if you’re into this type of networked note-taking
selfhoster11 5y ago
Using org-mode is a complete non-starter for me because of the requirement to use Emacs. I'm very happy with IntelliJ and don't wish to rewire my muscle memory/conceptual familiarity from an IDE into an editor that I will detest anyway (because I was forced to use it to have one feature).
- cyberbanjo 5y ago
  While it may be a higher initial investment, emacs doesn't enforce any key bindings, just sets defaults and many people rebind them. Nothing prevents you from creating or finding bindings of your suiting
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    Key bindings are just one problem. Fundamentally, I don't want to put in the work just to drag Emacs out of the 1980s/1970s and into the modern day, or learn Emacs-specific concepts, when my existing tools already are ready to use from install time and already require no adjustment to my mindset because they use modern terminology etc.
  - crispyambulance 5y ago
    > it may be a higher initial investment It IS a MASSIVE investment in time and effort to learn something that will appear as an obstacle MONTHS before it becomes second nature. Plus you spend the rest of you natural life fussing with your .emacs file.
    - medstrom 5y ago
      I thought that would be the case too, but after a few years and after adopting Doom Emacs, I've reached a stable flow. I don't fuss with it anymore. I just write new commands occasionally.
      - axiosgunnar 5y ago
        > after a few years […] I've reached a stable flow Do you guys not see the problem? :-)
lambda_dn 5y ago
Orgmode is praised, rightly, but the average user is never going to, or be able to use it.
zz865 5y ago
I keep hearing about org mode but want to avoid emacs unless its really worth it. Is there a youtube or demo to show what it actually does? I'm pretty happy with a couple of text files, I'm not sure what I'm missing out on.
- spudlyo 5y ago
  Org mode does a lot of different things, but one use case I find interesting is to be able to mix prose and program output in a technical document in a way that keeps things consistent when things change. I made a video[0] a year or so ago that explores Org's literate programming features that I think does a pretty good job of illustrating the power of Org. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9BcZvQbXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9BcZvQbXU
  - zz865 5y ago
    Thanks that's helpful. Looks like I dont need that extra stuff.
Torwald 5y ago
> using emacs might be tough on mobile There is an iPhone app for org-mode. It's free as in both. It's called beorg and it works great. Syncs org-mode files over iCloud and let's you edit them via a touch interface. Supports a very big subset of org features.
- ubermonkey 5y ago
  Just to provide another perspective: I use org as a notetaking-and-todo app, and BeOrg just really doesn't work that well for me AT ALL. I've given up on true iOS access to my org files except for must-do situations, and then I just use Editorial or Byword or some other iOS editor pointed to my Org folder in Dropbox. For capture on the go, I mostly use built-in notes and reminders on the phone and just port the data over later.
jonp888 5y ago
> Org-mode for Emacs [1] is just great > - Consistent interface: using emacs might be tough on mobile > - Custom logic: via emacs scripts > - Standard protocols: custom scripting does anything. Huh?! What kind of fantasy world are emacs devotees living in? No "normal" or even half-normal user is going to spend hours on "scripting" just to see their calendar, nor are they going to put up with mobile as anything other than a first class platform. For a lot of people, mobile is their only platform.
- capableweb 5y ago
  I don't think blackbear_ is a average user of emacs, remember we're on the same hacker news where a user famously asked "why even build Dropbox when ssh/scp does the trick?" so it's very biased towards "I can hack this together myself so why couldn't others".
  - TacoSteemers 5y ago
    If I recall correctly, that user was giving examples of questions that could be expected to be asked by other people. They were not actually tivializing Dropbox.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      You don't recall correctly, the users only question is about making money while the rest are statements on how Dropbox don't seem to solve any of the "real" problems and won't even replace FTP (I recalled ssh/sft incorrectly here too). You can check out history in the making yourself here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
      - TacoSteemers 5y ago
        Perhaps you are interested in these two comments by dang: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=dang%20brandonm%20dropbox&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... I think this is what I was remembering.
pnikosis 5y ago
I love Org mode but the fact that relies on emacs can push some people from using it. I've been using lately [logseq](https://logseq.com/ https://logseq.com/) and it's fantastic. Has the features I love from Org mode, plus what I like from Workflowy, stores the data in plain text in Markdown and supports cross references, images, and more. I love it.

yewenjie 5y ago

Yes. Org mode is fantastic. However, some limitations/ drawbacks. - org-agenda is slow and completely unusable if you have hundreds of org files. - despite multiple half-baked efforts there is still no easy-to-use parser and pretty printer for the lanuguage. I'm not even asking for 100% of the syntax, 20% capability of t he built-in org-element API with good documentatiom will accomplish 80% of the requirements. - no easy way to integrate calendars and org-agenda with something like a calDav server.

all2 5y ago
That last point is what gets me. I very much want my org-agenda to be linked to the calendar app on my phone. No easy way to do this, so far.
blackbear_ 5y ago
> no easy way to integrate calendars and org-agenda with something like a calDav server. It would be great to have something like this. I have a system which can at least handle invitations to events by means of a python script that convert iCal files to Org-style headers. It is triggered automatically via inotify so that every time a new iCal file appears into a specific folder it is appended automatically to an Org file. Now I simply save the .ics that comes attached to event invitation emails to have the time slot booked in my Org agenda automatically.
zeorin 5y ago
I've only recently started using org and haven't yet tried this, but I did research CalDav interop ahead of time and found https://github.com/dengste/org-caldav https://github.com/dengste/org-caldav
utrack 5y ago
JFYI, there's an excellent package org-ql which works quite nice with many org files. It has org-ql-view built in, which works like org-agenda. (https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql)
ubermonkey 5y ago
Agenda slowness is killing me. I need a solution, but honestly I feel like my next band-aid is probably an upgraded computer. I create a new org file for each client, plus a few extras, and so at this point I have (ls -al | grep org$ | wc -l) 86 such files. I could speed it up by doing more archiving, but it's useful to have history for long-running engagements in the main file vs the _archive files. I may decide to move moribund/closed engagement files to a subfolder for cold-storage, but then there's the out-of-sight, out-of-mind problem. OTOH, I never ever print from Org, and I use Exchange for calendaring, so the other two points aren't a problem for me, at least.
- gnubison 5y ago
  By the way, when ls isn’t printing to a terminal it defaults to one file name a line, so 'ls -a' would work fine here (and arguably be a bit more correct).
  - ubermonkey 5y ago
    Good tip, but these days I'm so long removed from daily terminal incantations that I mostly take a "kitchen sink and just make it work" approach.

solarkraft 5y ago

You can also use Org Mode files with Logseq (Roam-style outliner), which is the only client for it I know that doesn’t suck for my usage. https://logseq.com/ https://logseq.com/

roland35 5y ago

I love org mode and use it all the time, but I still occasionally blow up my file with inadvertent vim commands! Yes I know I am a weirdo for using eVil mode :) The most common mistake I make is having caps lock on and hitting J a bunch which merges all the lines together.

blackbear_ 5y ago
Yes, using evil mode in emacs puts you in the weird position of being scoffed at by both vim users and emacs users ;) > The most common mistake I make is having caps lock on and hitting J a bunch which merges all the lines together. Oh that happened to me as well one day, it was catastrophic! I did not realize I hit J on a folded header (which joined all lines in that section) before saving and quitting at the end of the day. I only realized the mess on the next day. I wrote a blog post [1] on how I solved it, if it sounds interesting. [1] https://e-dorigatti.github.io/phd/2020/08/27/lost-notes.html https://e-dorigatti.github.io/phd/2020/08/27/lost-notes.html
neutronicus 5y ago
Ugh I make that mistake with code constantly I fly into a panic because "U" doesn't do anything and Spacemacs binds "K" to some sort of manual lookup Deeply stressful experience
- gnubison 5y ago
  What is K supposed to do other than a manual lookup? That’s what it does in vim and neovim.
mkesper 5y ago
I found <https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs> doom-emacs to be very pleasant to use. Loading times are so much better than spacemacs. And using an external binary for updating etc. really helps.

y7 5y ago

On iOS I recently found beorg [1] for org-mode, and so far I'm happy with it. I've got it set up to connect through WebDAV to a GitFS mount on my homeserver, so that I automatically get versioning. I sync to the Git backend on my desktop. 1. https://beorg.app/ https://beorg.app/

ashton314 5y ago
beorg is amazing. Changed my life.
ubermonkey 5y ago
BeOrg seems to assume a sort of interaction with Org that is different than my usage, and so I've never found it very useful AT ALL. This is frustrating enough that I'm always kinda low-key evaluating other systems, like Obsidian, that have a better story for mobile.

Groxx 5y ago

Last time I was looking into org-mode, I ran across an extremely frequent refrain of "there are no 3rd party tools for it, because there is no spec". And then I looked for apps that'd work with it anyway, and came up shockingly short, though some of the most-trivial things generally worked. (orgzly is the one I ended up with. it's pretty good, definitely recommended for anyone doing this) Has that improved? It seems fine if you do everything from the CLI (or similar), but emacs is a little difficult to use on a phone.

nanna 5y ago
What sort of third party tools were you after? And when did you have a go?
- Groxx 5y ago
  ~3 years ago, and literally anything. I was trying to see if org-mode could serve as a long-term store of info (i.e. decades), so multi-OS and "likely to have other working implementations" or "can re-build by hand if necessary" was critical. Since then I've just settled on a pile of markdown/commonmark files that interlink when desired, and I'm pretty happy with that. Everything essentially just said "use emacs, that's the only implementation and the only spec". So I tried orgzly for a bit (it's handy), but ultimately decided it's a "hard no" for things with only one impl.
tgbugs 5y ago
We're working on a formal grammar and a test suite that can be used to specify expected behavior. See the linked mailing list thread [0] for pointers to some of the interested parties. 0. https://orgmode.org/list/CA+G3_POBAB1QX1Zv8q9sjFh4KHUHVmaNXp3XO7__6eoSdXKoyA@mail.gmail.com/ https://orgmode.org/list/CA+G3_POBAB1QX1Zv8q9sjFh4KHUHVmaNXp...
- happy-dude 5y ago
  I just wanted to chime in and mention that the folks who wrote organice[0] also came up with an EBNF grammar[1] for org-mode. Also of tangential interest is that work is actively being done on creating a tree-sitter version[2] of the grammar, although that work is not public (yet). [0] https://github.com/200ok-ch/organice https://github.com/200ok-ch/organice [1] https://github.com/200ok-ch/org-parser/blob/master/resources/org.ebnf https://github.com/200ok-ch/org-parser/blob/master/resources... [2] https://github.com/kristijanhusak/orgmode.nvim/issues/31#issuecomment-889875621 https://github.com/kristijanhusak/orgmode.nvim/issues/31#iss...

baby 5y ago

I tried so many times to get into it, but the barrier of entry is really high I find. Learning a number of shortcuts and keyboard flows just to take notes is not a very good idea IMO.

edoceo 5y ago
I'm in a terminal all day. But I point and click for calendar, notes, etc. I can't remember all the syntax and shortcuts. But the 'Create Event's button is generally easy to find. I've fed these to a custom NewTab extension and that has been a huge win for me. I make a new tab like every five minutes so it's always visible.
euroderf 5y ago
I picked up emacs long ago simply because it was modeless (i.e. not vi), but I haven't advanced beyond to-top, to-bottom, search, replace, save, quit. As others have eloquently said here, the terminology and the odd key bindings are an impediment.

tomc1985 5y ago

Yeah but then I'd have to use emacs

hnrj95 5y ago

seconded a million times. to me, nothing rivals org and its ecosystem. i’ll give org-roam a shout too, if you’re into this type of networked note-taking

selfhoster11 5y ago

Using org-mode is a complete non-starter for me because of the requirement to use Emacs. I'm very happy with IntelliJ and don't wish to rewire my muscle memory/conceptual familiarity from an IDE into an editor that I will detest anyway (because I was forced to use it to have one feature).

cyberbanjo 5y ago
While it may be a higher initial investment, emacs doesn't enforce any key bindings, just sets defaults and many people rebind them. Nothing prevents you from creating or finding bindings of your suiting
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Key bindings are just one problem. Fundamentally, I don't want to put in the work just to drag Emacs out of the 1980s/1970s and into the modern day, or learn Emacs-specific concepts, when my existing tools already are ready to use from install time and already require no adjustment to my mindset because they use modern terminology etc.
- crispyambulance 5y ago
  > it may be a higher initial investment It IS a MASSIVE investment in time and effort to learn something that will appear as an obstacle MONTHS before it becomes second nature. Plus you spend the rest of you natural life fussing with your .emacs file.
  - medstrom 5y ago
    I thought that would be the case too, but after a few years and after adopting Doom Emacs, I've reached a stable flow. I don't fuss with it anymore. I just write new commands occasionally.
    - axiosgunnar 5y ago
      > after a few years […] I've reached a stable flow Do you guys not see the problem? :-)

lambda_dn 5y ago

Orgmode is praised, rightly, but the average user is never going to, or be able to use it.

zz865 5y ago

I keep hearing about org mode but want to avoid emacs unless its really worth it. Is there a youtube or demo to show what it actually does? I'm pretty happy with a couple of text files, I'm not sure what I'm missing out on.

spudlyo 5y ago
Org mode does a lot of different things, but one use case I find interesting is to be able to mix prose and program output in a technical document in a way that keeps things consistent when things change. I made a video[0] a year or so ago that explores Org's literate programming features that I think does a pretty good job of illustrating the power of Org. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9BcZvQbXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9BcZvQbXU
- zz865 5y ago
  Thanks that's helpful. Looks like I dont need that extra stuff.

Torwald 5y ago

> using emacs might be tough on mobile There is an iPhone app for org-mode. It's free as in both. It's called beorg and it works great. Syncs org-mode files over iCloud and let's you edit them via a touch interface. Supports a very big subset of org features.

ubermonkey 5y ago
Just to provide another perspective: I use org as a notetaking-and-todo app, and BeOrg just really doesn't work that well for me AT ALL. I've given up on true iOS access to my org files except for must-do situations, and then I just use Editorial or Byword or some other iOS editor pointed to my Org folder in Dropbox. For capture on the go, I mostly use built-in notes and reminders on the phone and just port the data over later.

jonp888 5y ago

> Org-mode for Emacs [1] is just great > - Consistent interface: using emacs might be tough on mobile > - Custom logic: via emacs scripts > - Standard protocols: custom scripting does anything. Huh?! What kind of fantasy world are emacs devotees living in? No "normal" or even half-normal user is going to spend hours on "scripting" just to see their calendar, nor are they going to put up with mobile as anything other than a first class platform. For a lot of people, mobile is their only platform.

capableweb 5y ago
I don't think blackbear_ is a average user of emacs, remember we're on the same hacker news where a user famously asked "why even build Dropbox when ssh/scp does the trick?" so it's very biased towards "I can hack this together myself so why couldn't others".
- TacoSteemers 5y ago
  If I recall correctly, that user was giving examples of questions that could be expected to be asked by other people. They were not actually tivializing Dropbox.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    You don't recall correctly, the users only question is about making money while the rest are statements on how Dropbox don't seem to solve any of the "real" problems and won't even replace FTP (I recalled ssh/sft incorrectly here too). You can check out history in the making yourself here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
    - TacoSteemers 5y ago
      Perhaps you are interested in these two comments by dang: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=dang%20brandonm%20dropbox&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... I think this is what I was remembering.

pnikosis 5y ago

I love Org mode but the fact that relies on emacs can push some people from using it. I've been using lately [logseq](https://logseq.com/ https://logseq.com/) and it's fantastic. Has the features I love from Org mode, plus what I like from Workflowy, stores the data in plain text in Markdown and supports cross references, images, and more. I love it.