4 ms·

If citizens don't protest this is never going to end. That's why I don't understand why people hate antivax people. They exists mostly because politics have fai

by polote 5y ago

If citizens don't protest this is never going to end. That's why I don't understand why people hate antivax people. They exists mostly because politics have failed since the beginning. For any new measures that politicians make today. The more people are in favor of it the longer we will have to deal with all this nonsense. Politicians contrary to the beginning of the pandemic, are strongly confident that what they do is useful. When in fact it's all completely useless. Stop complaining about people who protest about the restrictions (whatever the restrictions), and support them. Politicians need to stop thinking that they need to act about covid. That's the only way we will end all that joke

falcolas 5y ago
> Stop complaining about people who protest about the restrictions (whatever the restrictions), and support them I refuse. So long as they - antivaxers - are filling hospital emergency rooms and killing other people by DDOSing caregivers, I absolutely fucking refuse.
- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  What about Israel? [0] What about Gibralter? They have also had huge upticks in cases and are still mostly vaccinated. The idea that this vaccine is going to cure everything feels more and more silly -- places with high vaccination rates _still have problems_. If the goal is 100% compliance on vaccinations, what do you do about other countries? These variants will be leaking out of them until the end of time. [0] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-DZDM-UUAInxW7?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-DZDM-UUAInxW7?format=jpg&name=...
  - ectopod 5y ago
    And without the vaccine we would have worse problems. Most of the hospitalised in the UK are among the unvaccinated young. If the old weren't vaccinated either then the pressure on the hospitals would be far worse.
    - bingohbangoh 5y ago
      Then when does this end? Vaccination is not enough? Masks aren't enough? If vaccination is not the end game, then there is no end game. There will always be some variant somewhere, even if the planet was 100% vaccinated, there would be virus multiplying in animal reservoirs.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    > places with high vaccination rates _still have problems_. Yes, they do. But getting COVID with a vaccination means infections are not emergency-room-critical events. Getting COVID without a vaccination can be an emergency-room-critical event. So no. I still refuse to support antivaxxers politics. Once we're no longer having hospital bed overflows with every new variant - that's when I'll revisit my choice.
    - bingohbangoh 5y ago
      "Once we're no longer having hospital bed overflows with every new variant" This will never happen. There will always be some new fearsome variant. You are advocating for Zero-COVID.
      - falcolas 5y ago
        You glossed over the important part of the sentence. > Hospital bed overflows That's the important part, not reaching 'Zero-COVID'. Vaccinations (or naturally occurring "immunity" due to infections) reducing the impact of new infections is sufficient to meet that criteria. And this will eventually happen. Antivaxxers are simply pushing this eventuality out, and taking out others along the way.
    - croutonwagon 5y ago
      >Yes, they do. But getting COVID with a vaccination means infections are not emergency-room-critical events. Getting COVID without a vaccination can be an emergency-room-critical event. Thats not entirely true. In my town close to 20% of the hospitalizations are vaccinated. And there have been deaths amongst those as well. Of course the news, even local, is rounding down +/- 5% when its convenient and up the same margin when also convenient. But the local county and hospitals publicly post the raw data. In fact i find calling people that are skeptical of the vaccine "anti-vaxxers" to be particularly unbecoming of an individual. Thats a specific attempt to conflate them with the Jenny McCarthy brand of anti-vaccination folks. These are brand new delivery methods and science that have either never been tried before, or in VERY limited use cases (such as Ebola for viral vector) and have few if any long term studies. People shouldnt be shamed for being skeptical or questioning of the narrative. If the facts fully support the narrative or reasoning you shouldnt NEED to shame or silence dissenters to make your arguments more effective. Especially when things like breakthrough rates are specifically being ignored as of May 1, 2021 [0], when theres data that specifically points to that fact such as slide 17. [1] And the fact that people are being banned and silenced for pointing out that the vaccine does not prevent infection, or serious outcomes of infection, or even transmission and these are generally baseline requirements of othervaccines [2] For example if TDAP or the pertussis vaccine allowed vaccinated patients an 80% chance of transmitting the virus, instead of the current 10%, there would absolutely be different reccomendations out there, especially for parents of newborns. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre... [1] https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/54f57708-a529-4a33-9a44-b66d719070d9/note/753667d6-8c61-495f-b669-5308f2827155 https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do.... [2] https://thehill.com/homenews/media/569908-twitter-bans-conservative-author-Alex-Berenson https://thehill.com/homenews/media/569908-twitter-bans-conse...
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  > DDOSing caregivers What an awesome phrase - will have to steal this.
- polote 5y ago
  Are you sure that encouraging measures, you are going to increase the vaccination rate ? In France where getting the vaccine allows you to go to restaurant, take the plane, take the train, ... This has barely been the case. Most people who got vaccinated are the ones who already planned to be vaccinated. The ones who were antivax, are still antivax
  - falcolas 5y ago
    My goal - and the effective goal (even explicit in some cases: "flattening the curve") of the stay-at-home orders, mask mandates, social distancing mandates, vaccinations - is the reduction of hospital-grade infections. That's what needs to go down. And if someone's not getting a vaccination, then they need to do several of the other steps to avoid overwhelming hospitals. If they don't (and they're not), then they haven't earned my support.
    - polote 5y ago
      There is not really evidence that the "other steps" works. The only that we know that works is getting the vaccine. But forcing people will not work. We should just accept them as they are and not feel superior. Thing that most politicians are very bad at
      - falcolas 5y ago
        > There is not really evidence that the "other steps" works Infection and hospitalization curves trending towards horizontal or 0 after those "other steps" were implemented, and before vaccines were available, was pretty compelling evidence to my eyes. As was the resumption of upward trends as those "other steps" were repealed. > We should just accept them as they are Oh, I accept that they probably won't change. Just as I don't expect flat earthers or moon landing deniers to change their minds in the face of evidence. Regardless, I absolutely refuse to support them, their politics, or their views.
jcranmer 5y ago
So I would agree that things like closing borders are closing the barn doors after the horse has not merely left but come back, had babies, raised them, and then the entire family left. There is a lot of room for discussion of what restrictions are necessary (e.g., mask mandates, especially in schools), and for more rational basis of restrictions to be implemented, that should be happening but isn't because this has all become hopelessly politicized. But antivax? Vaccinations clearly reduce incidences of COVID-19, especially those cases that induce the most strain on our health systems. And the strain that the current wave is producing is indeed intense--there are water treatment plants struggling to get enough liquid oxygen because so much is going to intubated COVID-19 patients. So there's increased risk of giving a major metropolitan city cholera because of the current COVID-19 wave. So the justification for not getting a vaccine at this point that the antivaxers push basically boils down to "I don't feel like it." That's not going to engender a lot of sympathy from those who realize that the antivaxers are basically murderers by proxy.
- nradov 5y ago
  I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but calling antivaxers murderers by proxy is illogical and inconsistent. We know that obesity is a preventable and treatable condition, and that it greatly increases the risk of COVID-19 hospitalization. So should we also label obese people as murderers by proxy? Obviously not. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm Instead of insulting them to make yourself feel morally superior it's more productive to focus on education and persuasion.
  - jcranmer 5y ago
    Obesity isn't a condition that is easily changed by choice--ending obesity requires some pretty major lifestyle changes, and maintaining that lifestyle change for an extended period. It's probably harder than quitting smoking. Choosing to change your mind and get vaccinated is a radically different situation. It's not hard to find a vaccination site; it's not hard to get to a center if you need to--it's basically as hard as going shopping, which is already a decently common activity for much of the population.

by polote 5y ago

falcolas 5y ago

> Stop complaining about people who protest about the restrictions (whatever the restrictions), and support them I refuse. So long as they - antivaxers - are filling hospital emergency rooms and killing other people by DDOSing caregivers, I absolutely fucking refuse.

bingohbangoh 5y ago
What about Israel? [0] What about Gibralter? They have also had huge upticks in cases and are still mostly vaccinated. The idea that this vaccine is going to cure everything feels more and more silly -- places with high vaccination rates _still have problems_. If the goal is 100% compliance on vaccinations, what do you do about other countries? These variants will be leaking out of them until the end of time. [0] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-DZDM-UUAInxW7?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-DZDM-UUAInxW7?format=jpg&name=...
- ectopod 5y ago
  And without the vaccine we would have worse problems. Most of the hospitalised in the UK are among the unvaccinated young. If the old weren't vaccinated either then the pressure on the hospitals would be far worse.
  - bingohbangoh 5y ago
    Then when does this end? Vaccination is not enough? Masks aren't enough? If vaccination is not the end game, then there is no end game. There will always be some variant somewhere, even if the planet was 100% vaccinated, there would be virus multiplying in animal reservoirs.
- falcolas 5y ago
  > places with high vaccination rates _still have problems_. Yes, they do. But getting COVID with a vaccination means infections are not emergency-room-critical events. Getting COVID without a vaccination can be an emergency-room-critical event. So no. I still refuse to support antivaxxers politics. Once we're no longer having hospital bed overflows with every new variant - that's when I'll revisit my choice.
  - bingohbangoh 5y ago
    "Once we're no longer having hospital bed overflows with every new variant" This will never happen. There will always be some new fearsome variant. You are advocating for Zero-COVID.
    - falcolas 5y ago
      You glossed over the important part of the sentence. > Hospital bed overflows That's the important part, not reaching 'Zero-COVID'. Vaccinations (or naturally occurring "immunity" due to infections) reducing the impact of new infections is sufficient to meet that criteria. And this will eventually happen. Antivaxxers are simply pushing this eventuality out, and taking out others along the way.
  - croutonwagon 5y ago
    >Yes, they do. But getting COVID with a vaccination means infections are not emergency-room-critical events. Getting COVID without a vaccination can be an emergency-room-critical event. Thats not entirely true. In my town close to 20% of the hospitalizations are vaccinated. And there have been deaths amongst those as well. Of course the news, even local, is rounding down +/- 5% when its convenient and up the same margin when also convenient. But the local county and hospitals publicly post the raw data. In fact i find calling people that are skeptical of the vaccine "anti-vaxxers" to be particularly unbecoming of an individual. Thats a specific attempt to conflate them with the Jenny McCarthy brand of anti-vaccination folks. These are brand new delivery methods and science that have either never been tried before, or in VERY limited use cases (such as Ebola for viral vector) and have few if any long term studies. People shouldnt be shamed for being skeptical or questioning of the narrative. If the facts fully support the narrative or reasoning you shouldnt NEED to shame or silence dissenters to make your arguments more effective. Especially when things like breakthrough rates are specifically being ignored as of May 1, 2021 [0], when theres data that specifically points to that fact such as slide 17. [1] And the fact that people are being banned and silenced for pointing out that the vaccine does not prevent infection, or serious outcomes of infection, or even transmission and these are generally baseline requirements of othervaccines [2] For example if TDAP or the pertussis vaccine allowed vaccinated patients an 80% chance of transmitting the virus, instead of the current 10%, there would absolutely be different reccomendations out there, especially for parents of newborns. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre... [1] https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/54f57708-a529-4a33-9a44-b66d719070d9/note/753667d6-8c61-495f-b669-5308f2827155 https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do.... [2] https://thehill.com/homenews/media/569908-twitter-bans-conservative-author-Alex-Berenson https://thehill.com/homenews/media/569908-twitter-bans-conse...
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
> DDOSing caregivers What an awesome phrase - will have to steal this.
polote 5y ago
Are you sure that encouraging measures, you are going to increase the vaccination rate ? In France where getting the vaccine allows you to go to restaurant, take the plane, take the train, ... This has barely been the case. Most people who got vaccinated are the ones who already planned to be vaccinated. The ones who were antivax, are still antivax
- falcolas 5y ago
  My goal - and the effective goal (even explicit in some cases: "flattening the curve") of the stay-at-home orders, mask mandates, social distancing mandates, vaccinations - is the reduction of hospital-grade infections. That's what needs to go down. And if someone's not getting a vaccination, then they need to do several of the other steps to avoid overwhelming hospitals. If they don't (and they're not), then they haven't earned my support.
  - polote 5y ago
    There is not really evidence that the "other steps" works. The only that we know that works is getting the vaccine. But forcing people will not work. We should just accept them as they are and not feel superior. Thing that most politicians are very bad at
    - falcolas 5y ago
      > There is not really evidence that the "other steps" works Infection and hospitalization curves trending towards horizontal or 0 after those "other steps" were implemented, and before vaccines were available, was pretty compelling evidence to my eyes. As was the resumption of upward trends as those "other steps" were repealed. > We should just accept them as they are Oh, I accept that they probably won't change. Just as I don't expect flat earthers or moon landing deniers to change their minds in the face of evidence. Regardless, I absolutely refuse to support them, their politics, or their views.

jcranmer 5y ago

So I would agree that things like closing borders are closing the barn doors after the horse has not merely left but come back, had babies, raised them, and then the entire family left. There is a lot of room for discussion of what restrictions are necessary (e.g., mask mandates, especially in schools), and for more rational basis of restrictions to be implemented, that should be happening but isn't because this has all become hopelessly politicized. But antivax? Vaccinations clearly reduce incidences of COVID-19, especially those cases that induce the most strain on our health systems. And the strain that the current wave is producing is indeed intense--there are water treatment plants struggling to get enough liquid oxygen because so much is going to intubated COVID-19 patients. So there's increased risk of giving a major metropolitan city cholera because of the current COVID-19 wave. So the justification for not getting a vaccine at this point that the antivaxers push basically boils down to "I don't feel like it." That's not going to engender a lot of sympathy from those who realize that the antivaxers are basically murderers by proxy.

nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but calling antivaxers murderers by proxy is illogical and inconsistent. We know that obesity is a preventable and treatable condition, and that it greatly increases the risk of COVID-19 hospitalization. So should we also label obese people as murderers by proxy? Obviously not. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7010e4.htm Instead of insulting them to make yourself feel morally superior it's more productive to focus on education and persuasion.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  Obesity isn't a condition that is easily changed by choice--ending obesity requires some pretty major lifestyle changes, and maintaining that lifestyle change for an extended period. It's probably harder than quitting smoking. Choosing to change your mind and get vaccinated is a radically different situation. It's not hard to find a vaccination site; it's not hard to get to a center if you need to--it's basically as hard as going shopping, which is already a decently common activity for much of the population.