9 ms·

After spending years in manufacturing IT, there are hundreds if not thousands of systems like these running, where the company that created the software is long

After spending years in manufacturing IT, there are hundreds if not thousands of systems like these running, where the company that created the software is long gone. This where you end up with DOS, Windows 3.1 and even Windows NT computers controlling machines that make millions of dollars worth of product, 24 hours a day. We've spent hours scouring eBay or industrial auction sites finding parts of computers to keep 'just in case'. None of this software virtualizes easily or can even be moved to a machine of similar vintage without relicensing. Some of it is hardware dongles, some of it software keys. It seems like you could create quite a business being able to crack this software. Companies would pay tens of thousands to get these machines running. Often times the 'new' version of the hardware and software is $100,000 US. In a few years, internet-based licensing will be the thing to crack.

fabianhjr 5y ago
> It seems like you could create quite a business being able to crack this software. Companies would pay tens of thousands to get these machines running. That would be against the copyright holder interests because as you point out: > Often times the 'new' version of the hardware and software is $100,000 US. An as per the Disney lobbied US copyright law you would have to wait at least the life of the author + 70 years or 95 years from publication depending on some circumstances.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  The supplier of the "new" software often isn't the same as the (usually defunct, hence the trouble) legacy supplier.
  - fabianhjr 5y ago
    That doesn't mean the copyright ownership disappeared. Those either got acquired/merged into another entity or liquidated in case of bankruptcy.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Right, but that's unlikely to be a scenario where there's any enforcement going on.
      - fnord77 5y ago
        If this were tried, the present copyright holders would come out of the woodwork and enforcement would happen pretty quickly.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        That's irrelevant in many cases where you want to support existing hardware. Clean room reverse engineering for interop purposes is allowed under copyright law.
        mikepurvis 5y ago
        Sure, but in fairness, this thread is about bypassing the copy protection in the existing software. Which I'm also arguing is safe, but it is not as obviously safe as a clean room reverse engineering effort.
        mikepurvis 5y ago
        Are there actual cases of this on the books? I'd be pretty surprised if a judge was like "ah yes the defendant's consultancy modified a piece of industrial control software that you haven't given a thought to in three decades to make it run on a modern computer and not require a parallel port dongle, and that's definitely a DMCA violation and you've been harmed by it and deserve all the money."
        sedev 5y ago
        "Laches" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity) is probably a relevant concept here. In a scenario like the one you're describing, the delay is likely to be taken into account, but it's unlikely to be the whole of the argument.
- hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
  Is it even illegal to crack software? Cracking copy protection is not the same as software piracy.
  - hnick 5y ago
    Laws will vary worldwide. For the US I believe the DMCA makes circumvention a crime. This was why the DeCSS number was illegal. There may be b2b contracts in addition to what the law says, but I believe the DMCA has an interoperability exception. I'm curious if "getting it to run on new hardware" is enough for that to trigger.
    - R0b0t1 5y ago
      It's a violation unless you have rights to use the work. This was added after the first revision, probably because they were worried about a challenge to the DMCA on these grounds striking more of the law's text. So, below, you have people wondering about cracking machine equipment. Totally legal to do.
    - exikyut 5y ago
      *Deep breath* *Opens can of worms* What about defining the equipment as "repairably broken" and asserting that circumventing the license protection falls within right to repair? *Opens even bigger can of worms* What about invoking this in a situation where someone's using an older piece of equipment and does not want to pay for example $500k, $1m, or more to green-field replace an entire installation when 99% of the existing system has perhaps a decade or more life left in it? -- I'm not entirely read up on the finer points of the John Deere tractor situation (which is kind of the current poster child for this whole thing), but I actually think the above arguments actually resonate with the precedent set by this particular case.
      - hnick 5y ago
        I did try to search for John Deere to remind myself before posting because I wanted to draw that link, but the best I could find was that farmers were installing software from Russia (where it's widely available, unlike the US) to enable repairs. The articles didn't say this was illegal (which makes sense under my limited understanding of the DMCA), but did mention it'd break warranty under current rules.
giancarlostoro 5y ago
You can turn a Windows HDD into a VHD but I was never able to get it to boot up properly on a VM, so I just use Linux to view old files instead. I forgot the approach I used, but it probably isnt too complicated to google.
- ashleyn 5y ago
  I recall reading that Windows historically built its hardware abstraction layer at install time and that's why you couldn't simply move a disk from like hardware to unlike hardware without a reinstall. You may want to try a fresh install of Windows, then copy over the application files. It might be tough if the vendor modified Windows libs and did not provide any installer.
  - unilynx 5y ago
    I think there was a way in NT (at least with NT5/2000) to replace HAL components with more 'generic' components (eg standard SATA drivers, uniprocessor kernel) so you could more easily move it to different hardware. I've only read about it but never tried it though, it may have been using the SYSPREP tools?
    - user5994461 5y ago
      For Windows XP, you have to go to device manager and uninstall the CPU and/or the motherboard, that will reset them to generic ACPI something if I recall well. I've done it once, migrating a very old machine to new hardware by just moving the disk.
  - giancarlostoro 5y ago
    I just thought about this, but do you think upgrading the OS on the VM might trigger it?
  - Grazester 5y ago
    In the days of XP I could not slap an old hard drive from one computer into another and expect it to boot. With Windows 10 I have done so many of times to my surprise. We have also virtualised many physical servers at my job. We use Veeam to create the VHD
userbinator 5y ago
Yes, such services exist. What a coincidence that I just posted a relevant comment about it on a different article yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28351754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28351754
dataflow 5y ago
> millions of dollars worth of product, 24 hours a day > Often times the 'new' version is $100,000 US Is the price really the issue here? It almost sounds like the company could afford it if it wanted to.
- hakfoo 5y ago
  A $100,000 machine is probably a machine with an entire workflow and facility engineered around it. So it's $100,000 plus: * The costs to disassemble and remove the old machine * The costs to install the new machine, which could include specialized contractors. * The costs to realign any supporting equipment to fit the new machine (i. e. if a conveyor belt feeding parts in or out has to be moved) * The costs to retool the rest of the manufacturing process that was dependent on quirks of the old machine. This could have a significant and expensive research phase. * Retraining to operate the new machine * Any parts scrapped by use in the testing or teething-trouble adjustment of the new machine * Downtime of the actual production process, potentially extending to failure to meet contracts and associated penalties So that "$100,000" machine could have end-to-end costs well into seven or eight figures.

fabianhjr 5y ago

> It seems like you could create quite a business being able to crack this software. Companies would pay tens of thousands to get these machines running. That would be against the copyright holder interests because as you point out: > Often times the 'new' version of the hardware and software is $100,000 US. An as per the Disney lobbied US copyright law you would have to wait at least the life of the author + 70 years or 95 years from publication depending on some circumstances.

HPsquared 5y ago
The supplier of the "new" software often isn't the same as the (usually defunct, hence the trouble) legacy supplier.
- fabianhjr 5y ago
  That doesn't mean the copyright ownership disappeared. Those either got acquired/merged into another entity or liquidated in case of bankruptcy.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    Right, but that's unlikely to be a scenario where there's any enforcement going on.
    - fnord77 5y ago
      If this were tried, the present copyright holders would come out of the woodwork and enforcement would happen pretty quickly.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        That's irrelevant in many cases where you want to support existing hardware. Clean room reverse engineering for interop purposes is allowed under copyright law.
        mikepurvis 5y ago
        Sure, but in fairness, this thread is about bypassing the copy protection in the existing software. Which I'm also arguing is safe, but it is not as obviously safe as a clean room reverse engineering effort.
      - mikepurvis 5y ago
        Are there actual cases of this on the books? I'd be pretty surprised if a judge was like "ah yes the defendant's consultancy modified a piece of industrial control software that you haven't given a thought to in three decades to make it run on a modern computer and not require a parallel port dongle, and that's definitely a DMCA violation and you've been harmed by it and deserve all the money."
        sedev 5y ago
        "Laches" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity) is probably a relevant concept here. In a scenario like the one you're describing, the delay is likely to be taken into account, but it's unlikely to be the whole of the argument.
hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
Is it even illegal to crack software? Cracking copy protection is not the same as software piracy.
- hnick 5y ago
  Laws will vary worldwide. For the US I believe the DMCA makes circumvention a crime. This was why the DeCSS number was illegal. There may be b2b contracts in addition to what the law says, but I believe the DMCA has an interoperability exception. I'm curious if "getting it to run on new hardware" is enough for that to trigger.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    It's a violation unless you have rights to use the work. This was added after the first revision, probably because they were worried about a challenge to the DMCA on these grounds striking more of the law's text. So, below, you have people wondering about cracking machine equipment. Totally legal to do.
  - exikyut 5y ago
    *Deep breath* *Opens can of worms* What about defining the equipment as "repairably broken" and asserting that circumventing the license protection falls within right to repair? *Opens even bigger can of worms* What about invoking this in a situation where someone's using an older piece of equipment and does not want to pay for example $500k, $1m, or more to green-field replace an entire installation when 99% of the existing system has perhaps a decade or more life left in it? -- I'm not entirely read up on the finer points of the John Deere tractor situation (which is kind of the current poster child for this whole thing), but I actually think the above arguments actually resonate with the precedent set by this particular case.
    - hnick 5y ago
      I did try to search for John Deere to remind myself before posting because I wanted to draw that link, but the best I could find was that farmers were installing software from Russia (where it's widely available, unlike the US) to enable repairs. The articles didn't say this was illegal (which makes sense under my limited understanding of the DMCA), but did mention it'd break warranty under current rules.

giancarlostoro 5y ago

You can turn a Windows HDD into a VHD but I was never able to get it to boot up properly on a VM, so I just use Linux to view old files instead. I forgot the approach I used, but it probably isnt too complicated to google.

ashleyn 5y ago
I recall reading that Windows historically built its hardware abstraction layer at install time and that's why you couldn't simply move a disk from like hardware to unlike hardware without a reinstall. You may want to try a fresh install of Windows, then copy over the application files. It might be tough if the vendor modified Windows libs and did not provide any installer.
- unilynx 5y ago
  I think there was a way in NT (at least with NT5/2000) to replace HAL components with more 'generic' components (eg standard SATA drivers, uniprocessor kernel) so you could more easily move it to different hardware. I've only read about it but never tried it though, it may have been using the SYSPREP tools?
  - user5994461 5y ago
    For Windows XP, you have to go to device manager and uninstall the CPU and/or the motherboard, that will reset them to generic ACPI something if I recall well. I've done it once, migrating a very old machine to new hardware by just moving the disk.
- giancarlostoro 5y ago
  I just thought about this, but do you think upgrading the OS on the VM might trigger it?
- Grazester 5y ago
  In the days of XP I could not slap an old hard drive from one computer into another and expect it to boot. With Windows 10 I have done so many of times to my surprise. We have also virtualised many physical servers at my job. We use Veeam to create the VHD

userbinator 5y ago

Yes, such services exist. What a coincidence that I just posted a relevant comment about it on a different article yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28351754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28351754

dataflow 5y ago

> millions of dollars worth of product, 24 hours a day > Often times the 'new' version is $100,000 US Is the price really the issue here? It almost sounds like the company could afford it if it wanted to.

hakfoo 5y ago
A $100,000 machine is probably a machine with an entire workflow and facility engineered around it. So it's $100,000 plus: * The costs to disassemble and remove the old machine * The costs to install the new machine, which could include specialized contractors. * The costs to realign any supporting equipment to fit the new machine (i. e. if a conveyor belt feeding parts in or out has to be moved) * The costs to retool the rest of the manufacturing process that was dependent on quirks of the old machine. This could have a significant and expensive research phase. * Retraining to operate the new machine * Any parts scrapped by use in the testing or teething-trouble adjustment of the new machine * Downtime of the actual production process, potentially extending to failure to meet contracts and associated penalties So that "$100,000" machine could have end-to-end costs well into seven or eight figures.