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Why is GDP implicitly the thing we should maximize? It's like this weird unstated thing everyone agrees on without critical examination. I'd rather have less G

Why is GDP implicitly the thing we should maximize? It's like this weird unstated thing everyone agrees on without critical examination. I'd rather have less GDP and no CCP; I'd also "sacrifice" max GDP for universal healthcare, fewer wars, jail reform...all kinds of things.

ericmay 5y ago
Yea. Also if you want to look at GDP - US is #1. And on a per-capita basis we're just below Norway and ahead of countries like Denmark and the UK. Personally I'd propose things like longevity, obesity, parks per-capita, household wealth, etc.
- analognoise 5y ago
  Yeah infant mortality, press freedom, corruption index, childhood educational rankings? There are a TON of things I'd put over GDP.
  - yuy910616 5y ago
    And if you look at the past 200 years that we've made large progress towards all the things you mentioned, with each of those accomplishments have been enabled by...GDP growth
yuy910616 5y ago
GDP is the thing we should measure because without it, you can't have all the things you mentioned - you might be able to not start wars but you still need a strong army. To say that money isn't everything is already a luxury
- analognoise 5y ago
  I never said it wasn't important, but we literally have the largest GDP - we won, game over! And we don't have universal healthcare. It's like we've confused a metric (GDP) with success; we maximized the metric and can't even wake up and realize it's not what we were actually trying to accomplish.
  - yuy910616 5y ago
    what is success then? what are you trying to accomplish? I'd argue the best way to accomplish whatever you're thinking about that we should be accomplishing - something that is hard to measure - is by maximizing GDP. Because GDP is correlated with everything you're thinking about accomplishing.
dorgo 5y ago
>I'd also "sacrifice" max GDP for universal healthcare, fewer wars, jail reform...all kinds of things. Because GDP pays for universal healthcare, for example...?
- analognoise 5y ago
  Not in our case, so apparently not - it COULD but it obviously doesn't. Also countries "worth" less seem to pay for it, so maybe it's that we have fucked up priorities?
  - yuy910616 5y ago
    These are minor details - US probably should pay for it. But directionally, if you're a developing country, you can't afford it. The best way to progress has been GDP growth - modern medicine is not driven by good-will, kindness, or faith. It's driven by profit
l332mn 5y ago
But China is better than the US in all of those things. They don't wage war, they have better health care (no massive drug monopoly charging obscene prices for cheap insulin), higher life expectancy, way fewer people in jail per capita, less of a drug problem (no opoid epidemic), less obesity, not nearly as much violence, practically no school shootings (as opposed to weekly shootings), etc.. this iist is LONG.
- ericmay 5y ago
  But is China better than Norway? Or New Zealand? Or Switzerland? The US (pockets at least) are dysfunctional but other countries demonstrate the model of not having to live under a dictatorship that commits genocide and restricts liberties and have high values in the things you mentioned. Not to mention that obesity comes from… consuming too much food. Chinese will be obese too soon as they become wealthier. Well, unless the government mandates calories or something like they do hours playing video games..
  - l332mn 5y ago
    China will probably become much better than Norway, New Zealand and Switzerland once they increase their GDP. They have made major strides already despite their relatively low GDP per capita. The US is the only country committing genocide. They have killed over a hundred innocent civilians in Afghanistan just the past few weeks. Over the past decodes they've killed around a million innocent civilians in the name of the hyper-aggressive and hypocritical "war on terror". Indirectly, they're responsible for several millions criminal murders during the same timespan, and they've not once been put to trial. They're not only failing their citizens, they're a genocidal, terrorist state.
    - ericmay 5y ago
      Yikes.... Hard to have a response to something so far removed from what I'm seeing. Not really any reconciliation possible here I think. Have a good day/evening!
      - 5y ago
dlp211 5y ago
I don't think that was the statement made, just that strong government is correlated with strong economies. Strong economies/governments are a necessary, but not sufficient requirement for those other things.

ericmay 5y ago

Yea. Also if you want to look at GDP - US is #1. And on a per-capita basis we're just below Norway and ahead of countries like Denmark and the UK. Personally I'd propose things like longevity, obesity, parks per-capita, household wealth, etc.

analognoise 5y ago
Yeah infant mortality, press freedom, corruption index, childhood educational rankings? There are a TON of things I'd put over GDP.
- yuy910616 5y ago
  And if you look at the past 200 years that we've made large progress towards all the things you mentioned, with each of those accomplishments have been enabled by...GDP growth

yuy910616 5y ago

GDP is the thing we should measure because without it, you can't have all the things you mentioned - you might be able to not start wars but you still need a strong army. To say that money isn't everything is already a luxury

analognoise 5y ago
I never said it wasn't important, but we literally have the largest GDP - we won, game over! And we don't have universal healthcare. It's like we've confused a metric (GDP) with success; we maximized the metric and can't even wake up and realize it's not what we were actually trying to accomplish.
- yuy910616 5y ago
  what is success then? what are you trying to accomplish? I'd argue the best way to accomplish whatever you're thinking about that we should be accomplishing - something that is hard to measure - is by maximizing GDP. Because GDP is correlated with everything you're thinking about accomplishing.

dorgo 5y ago

>I'd also "sacrifice" max GDP for universal healthcare, fewer wars, jail reform...all kinds of things. Because GDP pays for universal healthcare, for example...?

analognoise 5y ago
Not in our case, so apparently not - it COULD but it obviously doesn't. Also countries "worth" less seem to pay for it, so maybe it's that we have fucked up priorities?
- yuy910616 5y ago
  These are minor details - US probably should pay for it. But directionally, if you're a developing country, you can't afford it. The best way to progress has been GDP growth - modern medicine is not driven by good-will, kindness, or faith. It's driven by profit

l332mn 5y ago

But China is better than the US in all of those things. They don't wage war, they have better health care (no massive drug monopoly charging obscene prices for cheap insulin), higher life expectancy, way fewer people in jail per capita, less of a drug problem (no opoid epidemic), less obesity, not nearly as much violence, practically no school shootings (as opposed to weekly shootings), etc.. this iist is LONG.

ericmay 5y ago
But is China better than Norway? Or New Zealand? Or Switzerland? The US (pockets at least) are dysfunctional but other countries demonstrate the model of not having to live under a dictatorship that commits genocide and restricts liberties and have high values in the things you mentioned. Not to mention that obesity comes from… consuming too much food. Chinese will be obese too soon as they become wealthier. Well, unless the government mandates calories or something like they do hours playing video games..
- l332mn 5y ago
  China will probably become much better than Norway, New Zealand and Switzerland once they increase their GDP. They have made major strides already despite their relatively low GDP per capita. The US is the only country committing genocide. They have killed over a hundred innocent civilians in Afghanistan just the past few weeks. Over the past decodes they've killed around a million innocent civilians in the name of the hyper-aggressive and hypocritical "war on terror". Indirectly, they're responsible for several millions criminal murders during the same timespan, and they've not once been put to trial. They're not only failing their citizens, they're a genocidal, terrorist state.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Yikes.... Hard to have a response to something so far removed from what I'm seeing. Not really any reconciliation possible here I think. Have a good day/evening!
    - 5y ago

dlp211 5y ago

I don't think that was the statement made, just that strong government is correlated with strong economies. Strong economies/governments are a necessary, but not sufficient requirement for those other things.