4 ms·

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool.

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool. Lots of good candidates can't or won't give up their full time jobs to take a time-limited contract job. Those who can take contract work are often more talented and more in demand, meaning they're less worried about finding another job if the contract isn't renewed. Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers.

debarshri 5y ago
When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.
- deanclatworthy 5y ago
  Except job security. If you join a company in Finland on a permanent contract, once you have passed the trial period (6 months nowadays), it's quite difficult to get rid of you. Changing jobs can be a hassle. It means learning new names, potentially changing private healthcare provider, getting new equipment and setup, learning new company politics.
  - debarshri 5y ago
    True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      >True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract. I guess this just sounds weird to me. I would have to be pretty desperate to take a 1 year contract from a company that only paid me full-time wage as opposed to a contractors wage. I have to assume the Netherlands has a lot of developers seeking employment for this to work.
      - lbreakjai 5y ago
        It's pretty much the standard across all industries. It's extremely difficult to get rid of an "indefinite" employee, so most roles will start with a first fixed-term contract. You don't really get any less security than in a country like the U.K, where you can't claim unfair dismissal under two years of service.
      - PoignardAzur 5y ago
        There's the same system in France. As GP says, it's because taking an employee on an indefinite contract is a huge responsibility, and you basically can't fire them unless they set your office on fire. In France, there's a huge temp ecosystem that was built because of that. Companies don't hire developers, they subcontract to temp agencies for limited time. The advantage for them is if they need to downsize their team, they can simply terminate the contract without risking liability. The temp agency obviously takes a big cut on the developer's salary, until (at least in my individual experience) the developer decides to fuck off and do contracting directly instead and starts thinking, you know what, the French job market for developers sucks, I should probably send resumes to american companies instead.
        bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        Ok in Denmark the system is that you get hired, if they fire you in the first month you get 2 weeks severance, after which you have (IIRC) 3 months, this part is somewhat based on seniority / contract some times you might get a 4 month severance period. You can be fired for basically any reasonable reason though. I again have a hard time believing you need to set fire to the office before they fire you, don't French companies ever downsize?
        PoignardAzur 5y ago
        It's an hyperbole. Downsizing is allowed, but there's some heavy paperwork involved, you have to meet some guarantees, etc. The company can't do it at will. (Then again, I'm not a company owner, I don't know the details)
      - 5y ago
    - deanclatworthy 5y ago
      Three years sounds reasonable, one not so much. For the lack of security at one year, an actual contracting role might be more lucrative. Is it the case you can earn (quite a bit) more as a contractor, compared to full-time employment in NL? At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course).
      - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        >At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course). The rule I have always followed - though I don't remember where I picked it up - is that contracting should earn you twice as much as your full time salary - that way the risk etc. evens out.
      - debarshri 5y ago
        Quite a bit more as contractor. Yes.
      - BerislavLopac 5y ago
        > when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles Sadly this is not the case any more; with the new IR35 rules it's common to get a contract that is taxed as salary, except it does not include any benefits. Contracts outside IR35 exist, but they are very rare and pay even less.
- gifnamething 5y ago
  How would a mortgage lender feel about it?
  - debarshri 5y ago
    You can ask the company to give an intent to extend or give permanent contract and that works with mortgage lenders here.
  - poulsbohemian 5y ago
    Former independent software contractor turned real estate agent here... I am not a mortgage lender, but I work closely with them. You've likely need (at least) two years worth of bank and tax statements and a good credit score and then they'd be a-ok. Regardless of whether you are self employed or an employee, build those relationships with lenders early so they can advise appropriately.
  - mdoms 5y ago
    It's a permanent full time role.
lowercased 5y ago
> Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers. Probably should be...? You're typically getting paid more because of "no benefits". (I HATE the word 'benefits', FWIW). Buy your own health insurance - it's more accessible in the US via ACA. Yeah, you might miss out on some 401k matching. Save it yourself?
- pc86 5y ago
  "Contract" in this use does not mean the same thing as contract work in the US. It is a full-time position with all the benefits therein, except at the end of a year the employer can choose not to renew it. It is not equivalent to US 1099/freelance work.
  - lowercased 5y ago
    "Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers." It might happen, but every long-term contract gig via a contracting house has offered approximately equivalent benefits to some regular W2 employer. Those sorts of engagements typically have you as W2, just with the contracting house, not the end company. I've worked a handful (6mo, 12mo), and known people who stay in those situations for years - they accrue PTO and get 401k matching, just all through the contract agency. I suppose there are some agencies that don't offer that, but you'd likely get a higher rate. But... this is all from a US perspective. I've done all 3 - direct W2 employee, independent consultant/contractor, and 'contracted to large company to resell my time to someone else'. In the last case, W2 or 'corp to corp' was an option as well (though not always). Also had that "can choose not to renew it" - worked out 6 month contract, didn't renew. I guess I'm not sure what the reply was for...? I quoted "contract work (without benefits) is not an option" and you're telling me "Contract...is a full-time position with all the benefits therein". I think there's some talking past each other going on here...
SilurianWenlock 5y ago
How do you find contract work in London?
loftyal 5y ago
Isn't contract work looked down upon in the US? Here in the UK, its the opposite, contractors make atleast 2x the money, and most wouldn't dream of going back to salary position because no company wants to pay that for a permanent employee (apart from american companies and qaunt finance with nice bonuses)
- shagie 5y ago
  Contracts often fall into one of two categories. There's the consultants who make the big bucks. They come in to solve a particularly thorny problem that an org has and then the contract is done and they move on. There's also the staff argumentation contracts. We need six devs, but because of how accounting works, we can only hire two FTEs. However, contractors are part of an operations budget rather than a engineering budget... and so we can hire four devs as staff argumentation instead. Another example of staff argumentation would be some place where there's a flex in the amount of work to be done. Long ago, I worked tech support. About 25% of the staff was FTE while the remaining 75% weren't. It was claimed that it was so that it would be easier to flex down (or up) when demand for the tech support slacked off or if it shot up (it did a few times go up with new OS releases). The staff argumentation dev role is not as prestigious as a consultant.
  - robocat 5y ago
    > argumentation augmentation?
    - shagie 5y ago
      That too... the debates I've had... oh... yea, I spelled it wrong. The perils of autoincorrect.
- mmarq 5y ago
  Contractors in the UK earn more or less the same as other employees (once you account for benefits and paid holidays and sick leave), but do not pay taxes because of a loophole that hopefully will be fixed by IR35.

debarshri 5y ago

When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.

deanclatworthy 5y ago
Except job security. If you join a company in Finland on a permanent contract, once you have passed the trial period (6 months nowadays), it's quite difficult to get rid of you. Changing jobs can be a hassle. It means learning new names, potentially changing private healthcare provider, getting new equipment and setup, learning new company politics.
- debarshri 5y ago
  True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    >True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract. I guess this just sounds weird to me. I would have to be pretty desperate to take a 1 year contract from a company that only paid me full-time wage as opposed to a contractors wage. I have to assume the Netherlands has a lot of developers seeking employment for this to work.
    - lbreakjai 5y ago
      It's pretty much the standard across all industries. It's extremely difficult to get rid of an "indefinite" employee, so most roles will start with a first fixed-term contract. You don't really get any less security than in a country like the U.K, where you can't claim unfair dismissal under two years of service.
    - PoignardAzur 5y ago
      There's the same system in France. As GP says, it's because taking an employee on an indefinite contract is a huge responsibility, and you basically can't fire them unless they set your office on fire. In France, there's a huge temp ecosystem that was built because of that. Companies don't hire developers, they subcontract to temp agencies for limited time. The advantage for them is if they need to downsize their team, they can simply terminate the contract without risking liability. The temp agency obviously takes a big cut on the developer's salary, until (at least in my individual experience) the developer decides to fuck off and do contracting directly instead and starts thinking, you know what, the French job market for developers sucks, I should probably send resumes to american companies instead.
      - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        Ok in Denmark the system is that you get hired, if they fire you in the first month you get 2 weeks severance, after which you have (IIRC) 3 months, this part is somewhat based on seniority / contract some times you might get a 4 month severance period. You can be fired for basically any reasonable reason though. I again have a hard time believing you need to set fire to the office before they fire you, don't French companies ever downsize?
        PoignardAzur 5y ago
        It's an hyperbole. Downsizing is allowed, but there's some heavy paperwork involved, you have to meet some guarantees, etc. The company can't do it at will. (Then again, I'm not a company owner, I don't know the details)
    - 5y ago
  - deanclatworthy 5y ago
    Three years sounds reasonable, one not so much. For the lack of security at one year, an actual contracting role might be more lucrative. Is it the case you can earn (quite a bit) more as a contractor, compared to full-time employment in NL? At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course).
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      >At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course). The rule I have always followed - though I don't remember where I picked it up - is that contracting should earn you twice as much as your full time salary - that way the risk etc. evens out.
    - debarshri 5y ago
      Quite a bit more as contractor. Yes.
    - BerislavLopac 5y ago
      > when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles Sadly this is not the case any more; with the new IR35 rules it's common to get a contract that is taxed as salary, except it does not include any benefits. Contracts outside IR35 exist, but they are very rare and pay even less.
gifnamething 5y ago
How would a mortgage lender feel about it?
- debarshri 5y ago
  You can ask the company to give an intent to extend or give permanent contract and that works with mortgage lenders here.
- poulsbohemian 5y ago
  Former independent software contractor turned real estate agent here... I am not a mortgage lender, but I work closely with them. You've likely need (at least) two years worth of bank and tax statements and a good credit score and then they'd be a-ok. Regardless of whether you are self employed or an employee, build those relationships with lenders early so they can advise appropriately.
- mdoms 5y ago
  It's a permanent full time role.

lowercased 5y ago

> Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers. Probably should be...? You're typically getting paid more because of "no benefits". (I HATE the word 'benefits', FWIW). Buy your own health insurance - it's more accessible in the US via ACA. Yeah, you might miss out on some 401k matching. Save it yourself?

pc86 5y ago
"Contract" in this use does not mean the same thing as contract work in the US. It is a full-time position with all the benefits therein, except at the end of a year the employer can choose not to renew it. It is not equivalent to US 1099/freelance work.
- lowercased 5y ago
  "Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers." It might happen, but every long-term contract gig via a contracting house has offered approximately equivalent benefits to some regular W2 employer. Those sorts of engagements typically have you as W2, just with the contracting house, not the end company. I've worked a handful (6mo, 12mo), and known people who stay in those situations for years - they accrue PTO and get 401k matching, just all through the contract agency. I suppose there are some agencies that don't offer that, but you'd likely get a higher rate. But... this is all from a US perspective. I've done all 3 - direct W2 employee, independent consultant/contractor, and 'contracted to large company to resell my time to someone else'. In the last case, W2 or 'corp to corp' was an option as well (though not always). Also had that "can choose not to renew it" - worked out 6 month contract, didn't renew. I guess I'm not sure what the reply was for...? I quoted "contract work (without benefits) is not an option" and you're telling me "Contract...is a full-time position with all the benefits therein". I think there's some talking past each other going on here...

SilurianWenlock 5y ago

How do you find contract work in London?

loftyal 5y ago

Isn't contract work looked down upon in the US? Here in the UK, its the opposite, contractors make atleast 2x the money, and most wouldn't dream of going back to salary position because no company wants to pay that for a permanent employee (apart from american companies and qaunt finance with nice bonuses)

shagie 5y ago
Contracts often fall into one of two categories. There's the consultants who make the big bucks. They come in to solve a particularly thorny problem that an org has and then the contract is done and they move on. There's also the staff argumentation contracts. We need six devs, but because of how accounting works, we can only hire two FTEs. However, contractors are part of an operations budget rather than a engineering budget... and so we can hire four devs as staff argumentation instead. Another example of staff argumentation would be some place where there's a flex in the amount of work to be done. Long ago, I worked tech support. About 25% of the staff was FTE while the remaining 75% weren't. It was claimed that it was so that it would be easier to flex down (or up) when demand for the tech support slacked off or if it shot up (it did a few times go up with new OS releases). The staff argumentation dev role is not as prestigious as a consultant.
- robocat 5y ago
  > argumentation augmentation?
  - shagie 5y ago
    That too... the debates I've had... oh... yea, I spelled it wrong. The perils of autoincorrect.
mmarq 5y ago
Contractors in the UK earn more or less the same as other employees (once you account for benefits and paid holidays and sick leave), but do not pay taxes because of a loophole that hopefully will be fixed by IR35.