5 ms·

Antimaskers and antivaxxers frequently talk about their "freedoms" in the abstract. Here is an example where I am concretely losing my freedom to travel, becau

Antimaskers and antivaxxers frequently talk about their "freedoms" in the abstract. Here is an example where I am concretely losing my freedom to travel, because a portion of the populace refuse to take basic precautions.

TheBlight 5y ago
You've been duped into blaming an out-group for your problems.
- toiletfuneral 5y ago
  https://www.wect.com/2021/08/29/unmasked-elementary-school-teacher-infects-half-class-with-covid-19-cdc-says/ https://www.wect.com/2021/08/29/unmasked-elementary-school-t...
- failrate 5y ago
  This isn't the case where the actions of the group are harmless to me. Unvaccinated people and antimaskers are creating a more dangerous environment for me through their actions and inactions.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - huibf 5y ago
    If you are vaccinated then you have nothing to worry about, right? ;-)
    - otterley 5y ago
      Not necessarily. The number of COVID infection cases related to new variants among the vaccinated population is increasing. That's why I'm back to wearing a mask again. If everyone had been vaccinated as soon as the vaccine was available to them, and were using good mask and hand-washing hygiene, it might not have come to this.
    - dfxm12 5y ago
      No. I don't know if the winky face is to denote sarcasm, but it seems like it should still be noted that because so many people who could be vaccinated are refusing to get vaccinated, vaccinated people and people who can't get the vaccine still have to worry about a greater chance of catching a variant strain and also hospitals not being able to care for them (for any reason) because they're being bogged down treating preventable disease.
      - the_doctah 5y ago
        Variant strains are going to happen regardless of what we do, just like with the flu. This is an invalid argument that people keep using in ignorance. It's like people honestly believe the world was going to achieve 100% vaccination rate.
        dfxm12 5y ago
        It's a shame I didn't argue that variant strains were never going to happen, then. If you want to talk about arguments made in ignorance, please start by not putting words in other people's mouths.
        failrate 5y ago
        Likelihood of variant strains depends on the infection rate. Reduce the number of infections and you reduce the variants. Talk to me about how near total vaccination rates are impossible the next time you contract smallpox or polio.
        the_doctah 5y ago
        Those vaccines you mentioned actually worked to decrease infection rates though. If the covid vaccine stopped the spread of the virus I would be agreeing with you. Can you imagine if the Polio vaccine "wore off" like the Covid vaccine seems to?
        failrate 5y ago
        You are making an extraordinary claim when you state that the vaccine does not prevent spread. Additionally, the flu vaccine becomes ineffective year after year expressly because of variant strains arising from unvaccinated people failing to take precautions like wearing masks, socially distancing during epidemics, and avoiding school and work while infectious.
  - the_doctah 5y ago
    Are they? The vaccine doesn't even stop transmission of covid, and the effectiveness of non-N95 masks is dubious at best. So really the only variable is whether you yourself are vaccinated or not. You seem to be just parroting the media and Reddit.
    - failrate 5y ago
      Vaccines reduce transmission rates for the variant for which they are developed. The wearing of masks for COVID had the unintended side effect of eliminating some strains of influenza. I don't read Reddit, and I take my media with a healthy grain of salt, but we are talking about the basic function of virii and the immune system.
  - CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
    This is a fallacious line of reasoning that is incredibly vulnerable to slippery slope and moving goalposts. While the saying is true that "your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins," that argument falls apart when you try to apply it beyond one-on-one interactions with direct consequences into group generalities and indirect/indeterminable consequences, such as "creating a more dangerous environment." It does not allow you to prohibit things, nor compel others, out of a feared or perceived potential for harm. That reasoning leads straight to 1984's "freedom is slavery."
    - toiletfuneral 5y ago
      Hey can I get some clarification? Are you saying the liberty of people with COVID who ignore precautions are the victims to worry about here? I could’ve sworn it was illegal to pass on viruses if you knew you were infected, but that was gays and not true patriots, so I’m sure the rules are different now
beaconstudios 5y ago
Not supporting them here (I am vaccinated and wear a mask in public), but their freedom is quite clearly the freedom of bodily autonomy - which I think is a more important freedom than your freedom to go on holiday abroad. I totally disagree with their conclusions, but if we're ranking freedoms then bodily autonomy comes first.
- failrate 5y ago
  Who said anything about holidays?
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    Even your freedom to travel for business - bodily autonomy is probably the most important individual freedom there is.
    - failrate 5y ago
      Explain to me even one downside of wearing a protective mask in public situations.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        > (I am vaccinated and wear a mask in public) I've already said this.
    - macintux 5y ago
      Even Objectivists recognize that the freedom to throw a punch ends at someone else's face.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        of course that's where the conflict comes in with a disease; by exercising bodily autonomy and therefore increasing the risk of covid, you also risk others' health by spreading it. But that's the benefit of the vaccine right? If you do catch it, you are extremely unlikely to have a severe case, and hopefully at some point a vaccine that prevents catching specific strains will be developed, leading to only antivaxxers getting covid. I don't know what the right answer is when such conflicts arise, but I don't see the point of pretending that the antivaxxers' claims of freedoms being violated is somehow ambiguous - and to not counter that argument would be intellectually dishonest. I do know that the right answer for me and my family is to take the vaccine and wear a mask.
CountDrewku 5y ago
No you're losing your freedom to travel because these countries are playing political games with each other and your rights. It has absolutely nothing to do with the unvaccinated. They could easily just ask for a vaccine card. Direct your fervor where it belongs.
jaywalk 5y ago
Masks and vaccines do far less than you've been led to believe. But either way, it's the politicians who are taking away your ability to travel outside the country, not some fictional boogeyman that the propaganda tells you to hate.
- ed_elliott_asc 5y ago
  Have you got any evidence to show masks and vaccines don’t work?
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    Israel and Japan.
- CabSauce 5y ago
  "Masks and vaccines do far less than you've been led to believe." What is this based on?
  - the_doctah 5y ago
    Probably numbers from countries with high vaccination rates (Israel) that continue to be inundated with new cases[1] It's pretty clear the the vaccine does not stop transmission of the virus. [1] - https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628...
    - CabSauce 5y ago
      "That means only 58% of Israel's total citizenry is fully vaccinated." "But Israel paid a price for the early rollout. Health officials, and then Pfizer, said their data showed a dip in the vaccine's protection around six months after receiving the second shot." That doesn't exactly fit your narrative, imo.
      - 5y ago
bserge 5y ago
And if they keep doing this even when the vaccination rate is 80%+? Kinda looks like the cat's out of the bag. Help Big Brother out, blame each other!
- failrate 5y ago
  Even if I assume that these governments are retaliating against each other in bad faith, the fact that we are still in the midst of a global pandemic would certainly give them the justification for their behavior. Once COVID became irrelevant (instead of endemic, which is beginning to look increasingly likely), then that justification is no longer valid.
- resource0x 5y ago
  > And if they keep doing this even when the vaccination rate is 80%+? For the purposes of travel to some EU countries, vaccination has expiry date (270 days after receiving last vaccine). E.g., if you got your second Pfizer dose in March, by December your vaccination status is equivalent to "unvaccinated". https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/08/18/covid-booster-countries-vaccine-expiry-travel/?sh=18d666533dd2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/08/18...
  - bserge 5y ago
    While I don't mind the regular vaccine (no different than flu), the restrictions are worrying.
Chris2048 5y ago
You have no formal right to enter another country if they don't want you to.

TheBlight 5y ago

You've been duped into blaming an out-group for your problems.

toiletfuneral 5y ago
https://www.wect.com/2021/08/29/unmasked-elementary-school-teacher-infects-half-class-with-covid-19-cdc-says/ https://www.wect.com/2021/08/29/unmasked-elementary-school-t...
failrate 5y ago
This isn't the case where the actions of the group are harmless to me. Unvaccinated people and antimaskers are creating a more dangerous environment for me through their actions and inactions.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- huibf 5y ago
  If you are vaccinated then you have nothing to worry about, right? ;-)
  - otterley 5y ago
    Not necessarily. The number of COVID infection cases related to new variants among the vaccinated population is increasing. That's why I'm back to wearing a mask again. If everyone had been vaccinated as soon as the vaccine was available to them, and were using good mask and hand-washing hygiene, it might not have come to this.
  - dfxm12 5y ago
    No. I don't know if the winky face is to denote sarcasm, but it seems like it should still be noted that because so many people who could be vaccinated are refusing to get vaccinated, vaccinated people and people who can't get the vaccine still have to worry about a greater chance of catching a variant strain and also hospitals not being able to care for them (for any reason) because they're being bogged down treating preventable disease.
    - the_doctah 5y ago
      Variant strains are going to happen regardless of what we do, just like with the flu. This is an invalid argument that people keep using in ignorance. It's like people honestly believe the world was going to achieve 100% vaccination rate.
      - dfxm12 5y ago
        It's a shame I didn't argue that variant strains were never going to happen, then. If you want to talk about arguments made in ignorance, please start by not putting words in other people's mouths.
      - failrate 5y ago
        Likelihood of variant strains depends on the infection rate. Reduce the number of infections and you reduce the variants. Talk to me about how near total vaccination rates are impossible the next time you contract smallpox or polio.
        the_doctah 5y ago
        Those vaccines you mentioned actually worked to decrease infection rates though. If the covid vaccine stopped the spread of the virus I would be agreeing with you. Can you imagine if the Polio vaccine "wore off" like the Covid vaccine seems to?
        failrate 5y ago
        You are making an extraordinary claim when you state that the vaccine does not prevent spread. Additionally, the flu vaccine becomes ineffective year after year expressly because of variant strains arising from unvaccinated people failing to take precautions like wearing masks, socially distancing during epidemics, and avoiding school and work while infectious.
- the_doctah 5y ago
  Are they? The vaccine doesn't even stop transmission of covid, and the effectiveness of non-N95 masks is dubious at best. So really the only variable is whether you yourself are vaccinated or not. You seem to be just parroting the media and Reddit.
  - failrate 5y ago
    Vaccines reduce transmission rates for the variant for which they are developed. The wearing of masks for COVID had the unintended side effect of eliminating some strains of influenza. I don't read Reddit, and I take my media with a healthy grain of salt, but we are talking about the basic function of virii and the immune system.
- CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
  This is a fallacious line of reasoning that is incredibly vulnerable to slippery slope and moving goalposts. While the saying is true that "your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins," that argument falls apart when you try to apply it beyond one-on-one interactions with direct consequences into group generalities and indirect/indeterminable consequences, such as "creating a more dangerous environment." It does not allow you to prohibit things, nor compel others, out of a feared or perceived potential for harm. That reasoning leads straight to 1984's "freedom is slavery."
  - toiletfuneral 5y ago
    Hey can I get some clarification? Are you saying the liberty of people with COVID who ignore precautions are the victims to worry about here? I could’ve sworn it was illegal to pass on viruses if you knew you were infected, but that was gays and not true patriots, so I’m sure the rules are different now

beaconstudios 5y ago

Not supporting them here (I am vaccinated and wear a mask in public), but their freedom is quite clearly the freedom of bodily autonomy - which I think is a more important freedom than your freedom to go on holiday abroad. I totally disagree with their conclusions, but if we're ranking freedoms then bodily autonomy comes first.

failrate 5y ago
Who said anything about holidays?
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Even your freedom to travel for business - bodily autonomy is probably the most important individual freedom there is.
  - failrate 5y ago
    Explain to me even one downside of wearing a protective mask in public situations.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      > (I am vaccinated and wear a mask in public) I've already said this.
  - macintux 5y ago
    Even Objectivists recognize that the freedom to throw a punch ends at someone else's face.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      of course that's where the conflict comes in with a disease; by exercising bodily autonomy and therefore increasing the risk of covid, you also risk others' health by spreading it. But that's the benefit of the vaccine right? If you do catch it, you are extremely unlikely to have a severe case, and hopefully at some point a vaccine that prevents catching specific strains will be developed, leading to only antivaxxers getting covid. I don't know what the right answer is when such conflicts arise, but I don't see the point of pretending that the antivaxxers' claims of freedoms being violated is somehow ambiguous - and to not counter that argument would be intellectually dishonest. I do know that the right answer for me and my family is to take the vaccine and wear a mask.

CountDrewku 5y ago

No you're losing your freedom to travel because these countries are playing political games with each other and your rights. It has absolutely nothing to do with the unvaccinated. They could easily just ask for a vaccine card. Direct your fervor where it belongs.

jaywalk 5y ago

Masks and vaccines do far less than you've been led to believe. But either way, it's the politicians who are taking away your ability to travel outside the country, not some fictional boogeyman that the propaganda tells you to hate.

ed_elliott_asc 5y ago
Have you got any evidence to show masks and vaccines don’t work?
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Israel and Japan.
CabSauce 5y ago
"Masks and vaccines do far less than you've been led to believe." What is this based on?
- the_doctah 5y ago
  Probably numbers from countries with high vaccination rates (Israel) that continue to be inundated with new cases[1] It's pretty clear the the vaccine does not stop transmission of the virus. [1] - https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628...
  - CabSauce 5y ago
    "That means only 58% of Israel's total citizenry is fully vaccinated." "But Israel paid a price for the early rollout. Health officials, and then Pfizer, said their data showed a dip in the vaccine's protection around six months after receiving the second shot." That doesn't exactly fit your narrative, imo.
    - 5y ago

bserge 5y ago

And if they keep doing this even when the vaccination rate is 80%+? Kinda looks like the cat's out of the bag. Help Big Brother out, blame each other!

failrate 5y ago
Even if I assume that these governments are retaliating against each other in bad faith, the fact that we are still in the midst of a global pandemic would certainly give them the justification for their behavior. Once COVID became irrelevant (instead of endemic, which is beginning to look increasingly likely), then that justification is no longer valid.
resource0x 5y ago
> And if they keep doing this even when the vaccination rate is 80%+? For the purposes of travel to some EU countries, vaccination has expiry date (270 days after receiving last vaccine). E.g., if you got your second Pfizer dose in March, by December your vaccination status is equivalent to "unvaccinated". https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/08/18/covid-booster-countries-vaccine-expiry-travel/?sh=18d666533dd2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/08/18...
- bserge 5y ago
  While I don't mind the regular vaccine (no different than flu), the restrictions are worrying.

Chris2048 5y ago

You have no formal right to enter another country if they don't want you to.