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Surprisingly, no side was assigned the blame for the collision. Unlike air traffic or surface navy accident. One had a conning tower damage, the other had a bo

Surprisingly, no side was assigned the blame for the collision. Unlike air traffic or surface navy accident. One had a conning tower damage, the other had a bow damage; both were supposedly slow-moving at the moment. Is there such thing as right of way for subs?

tjohns 5y ago
How do you exercise right of way over another submarine that you don't know the position of? The whole point of submarines is that they're stealthy. Active sonor would give away their position. They're basically swimming blind. The only way this all works is the ocean is big enough that random collisions are statistically rare - but there's not much actually preventing them.
- zoomablemind 5y ago
  > ...They're basically swimming blind. It did appear just like that. Shouldn't there be some proximity sensors to avert collisions with massive bodies? After all in the aftermath both subs were rendered mission incapable.
  - idoh 5y ago
    How would the proximity sensors work? The can’t go active sonar…
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      Optical, perhaps? How much light is at these depths? How do the subs avoid terrain?
      - jvzr 5y ago
        I remember (barely) from a diver friend that colors disappear below 20 meters (everything appears blue, unless a bright light is shone), and sun light disappears completely below 70 meters. You'd assume that an optical system with flood lights could theoretically work, but then it would be pretty simple to monitor for light at these depths (for counter-intelligence/retaliatory purposes)
      - nradov 5y ago
        Subs avoid terrain using charts and dead reckoning, including inertial navigation systems. They typically come to periscope depth occasionally to get a navigational fix. In 2005 a US submarine allided with an underwater mountain due to a navigational error. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whos-to-blame-for-sub-accident/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whos-to-blame-for-sub-accident/ There is little or no light at typical operating depths. Lidar can work to a limited extent in some water conditions but it's not something to rely upon for collision avoidance.
        sbierwagen 5y ago
        >Lidar can work to a limited extent in some water conditions but it's not something to rely upon And, of course, it's an active sensor. An adversary could detect the emitted light.
    - zoomablemind 5y ago
      Low power high freq radio waves? These should rapidly attenuate underwater, so not much of giveaway, but could be enough for proximity scans around the sub. Is there some spectrum of emissions from an even stealthy sub, some kind of "local presence"? The immediate massive obstacles would result in distortions to such a self-presence profile. So the sensors could be trained to detect such local distortions, almost like some fish have a lateral line of nerves supposedly helping detect current flows etc. [1]. [1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_line https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_line
      - zoomablemind 5y ago
        >...So the sensors could be trained to detect such local distortions, almost like some fish have a lateral line ... Turns out, this has been modeled already (2007): [1]:https://www.photonics.com/Articles/Fish_Navigation_System_Recreated_for_Submarines/a28572 https://www.photonics.com/Articles/Fish_Navigation_System_Re...
    - kragen 5y ago
      Ultrasound, magnetic, eddy-current metal detection, conductivity detection by conducting current through water, red light, VNIR, antineutrino detectors...
juanani 5y ago
Both are western power countries. Blame gets assigned when the others are a part of it. The headline also would've read: Disaster averted as our forces save the day..
imwillofficial 5y ago
No right of way, but there are movements called “baffle clearing” where you check your blind spots before moving. Due to the fickle nature of the mistress that is the ocean, sometimes even properly executed movements can still be dangerous. Submarine life is insanely dangerous.

tjohns 5y ago

How do you exercise right of way over another submarine that you don't know the position of? The whole point of submarines is that they're stealthy. Active sonor would give away their position. They're basically swimming blind. The only way this all works is the ocean is big enough that random collisions are statistically rare - but there's not much actually preventing them.

zoomablemind 5y ago
> ...They're basically swimming blind. It did appear just like that. Shouldn't there be some proximity sensors to avert collisions with massive bodies? After all in the aftermath both subs were rendered mission incapable.
- idoh 5y ago
  How would the proximity sensors work? The can’t go active sonar…
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    Optical, perhaps? How much light is at these depths? How do the subs avoid terrain?
    - jvzr 5y ago
      I remember (barely) from a diver friend that colors disappear below 20 meters (everything appears blue, unless a bright light is shone), and sun light disappears completely below 70 meters. You'd assume that an optical system with flood lights could theoretically work, but then it would be pretty simple to monitor for light at these depths (for counter-intelligence/retaliatory purposes)
    - nradov 5y ago
      Subs avoid terrain using charts and dead reckoning, including inertial navigation systems. They typically come to periscope depth occasionally to get a navigational fix. In 2005 a US submarine allided with an underwater mountain due to a navigational error. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whos-to-blame-for-sub-accident/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whos-to-blame-for-sub-accident/ There is little or no light at typical operating depths. Lidar can work to a limited extent in some water conditions but it's not something to rely upon for collision avoidance.
      - sbierwagen 5y ago
        >Lidar can work to a limited extent in some water conditions but it's not something to rely upon And, of course, it's an active sensor. An adversary could detect the emitted light.
  - zoomablemind 5y ago
    Low power high freq radio waves? These should rapidly attenuate underwater, so not much of giveaway, but could be enough for proximity scans around the sub. Is there some spectrum of emissions from an even stealthy sub, some kind of "local presence"? The immediate massive obstacles would result in distortions to such a self-presence profile. So the sensors could be trained to detect such local distortions, almost like some fish have a lateral line of nerves supposedly helping detect current flows etc. [1]. [1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_line https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_line
    - zoomablemind 5y ago
      >...So the sensors could be trained to detect such local distortions, almost like some fish have a lateral line ... Turns out, this has been modeled already (2007): [1]:https://www.photonics.com/Articles/Fish_Navigation_System_Recreated_for_Submarines/a28572 https://www.photonics.com/Articles/Fish_Navigation_System_Re...
  - kragen 5y ago
    Ultrasound, magnetic, eddy-current metal detection, conductivity detection by conducting current through water, red light, VNIR, antineutrino detectors...

juanani 5y ago

Both are western power countries. Blame gets assigned when the others are a part of it. The headline also would've read: Disaster averted as our forces save the day..

imwillofficial 5y ago

No right of way, but there are movements called “baffle clearing” where you check your blind spots before moving. Due to the fickle nature of the mistress that is the ocean, sometimes even properly executed movements can still be dangerous. Submarine life is insanely dangerous.