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As an American reading through this, this has a distinct smell of French courts ruling in ways favorable to the national ISP because it might cost the governmen

As an American reading through this, this has a distinct smell of French courts ruling in ways favorable to the national ISP because it might cost the government money to do otherwise. Basically - this looks pretty bad from my perspective. Anyone with more context who can explain how copyright could exist in France if all licenses are considered contracts instead?

Thomashuet 5y ago
The other side (Entr’Ouvert) is also French. I don't see how you can think this is a case of France against not France.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  One is a national asset and one isn’t? (Perhaps I’m wrong)
- edoceo 5y ago
  Nobody thinks it's France v !France. Its big national corp (Orange) vs a little guy. The court sided with the BigCo. That's the issue.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Yeah, if Orange was willing to do this once, the chances are that their tech stack would be swiss cheese if they had to excise all the GPL-licensed tech they are using without rights. The precedent is more important to them than the $3mm.
polote 5y ago
> to the national ISP It is the previous national ISP. I'm not even sure it has ever been a private ISP. It's completely private now [0] (but still owned at 30% by the government) and they have three big competitors: SFR, Iliad, Bouygues [0] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=EPA:+ORA https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=EPA:+ORA
Veen 5y ago
Or it's French courts making a ruling which is compatible with French law and incompatible with an American's understanding of what French law should be. You can read about it here [i]. The point is that behavior contrary to the terms of a license is considered a contract breach and not a copyright violation, so Orange didn't violate copyright. It's yet to be determined whether they violated the terms of a contract (the court in question can't make that determination.) [i]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_France
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  So if you're aware of the specifics here, help me out with the question I asked. How can you possibly have a valid copyright for software in French law if all license terms are considered contract breaches? From your own link... - >>The legal position was resolved by the transposition of May 14, 1991 EU Directive into French law: computer programs and any associated preparatory works qualify for copyright protection in France as in other European Union jurisdictions. Once a work has been published, the author cannot prevent: 1. Private family performances. 2. Copies for the private and personal use of the copier. This provision does not apply to works of art, computer programs (where a single safeguard copy is allowed, Art. L122-6-1-II) and databases. 3. In cases where the name of the author and the source are clearly indicated, a) Analyses and short citations justified by the critical, polemical, scientific or pedagogical nature of the work. b) Press reviews. c) Diffusion of public speeches as current news. d) Reproductions of works of art in catalogues for auctions in France (subject to regulatory restrictions). 4. Parody, pastiche and caricature, "taking into account the usage of the genre". 5. Acts necessary to access a database within the limits of the agreed use. - But how can this be true? Orange clearly does not fall into any of the excluded uses, and I must release my software with some sort of licensing statement (even the lack of a statement is a statement in my jurisdiction). But it appears this ruling would mean all breaches could only ever be contract breaches. So again, how do I have copyright for software in France? I'm genuinely trying to understand if there's some nuance here that I'm missing.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago

Thomashuet 5y ago

The other side (Entr’Ouvert) is also French. I don't see how you can think this is a case of France against not France.

imwillofficial 5y ago
One is a national asset and one isn’t? (Perhaps I’m wrong)
edoceo 5y ago
Nobody thinks it's France v !France. Its big national corp (Orange) vs a little guy. The court sided with the BigCo. That's the issue.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Yeah, if Orange was willing to do this once, the chances are that their tech stack would be swiss cheese if they had to excise all the GPL-licensed tech they are using without rights. The precedent is more important to them than the $3mm.

polote 5y ago

> to the national ISP It is the previous national ISP. I'm not even sure it has ever been a private ISP. It's completely private now [0] (but still owned at 30% by the government) and they have three big competitors: SFR, Iliad, Bouygues [0] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=EPA:+ORA https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=EPA:+ORA

Veen 5y ago

Or it's French courts making a ruling which is compatible with French law and incompatible with an American's understanding of what French law should be. You can read about it here [i]. The point is that behavior contrary to the terms of a license is considered a contract breach and not a copyright violation, so Orange didn't violate copyright. It's yet to be determined whether they violated the terms of a contract (the court in question can't make that determination.) [i]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_France

horsawlarway 5y ago
So if you're aware of the specifics here, help me out with the question I asked. How can you possibly have a valid copyright for software in French law if all license terms are considered contract breaches? From your own link... - >>The legal position was resolved by the transposition of May 14, 1991 EU Directive into French law: computer programs and any associated preparatory works qualify for copyright protection in France as in other European Union jurisdictions. Once a work has been published, the author cannot prevent: 1. Private family performances. 2. Copies for the private and personal use of the copier. This provision does not apply to works of art, computer programs (where a single safeguard copy is allowed, Art. L122-6-1-II) and databases. 3. In cases where the name of the author and the source are clearly indicated, a) Analyses and short citations justified by the critical, polemical, scientific or pedagogical nature of the work. b) Press reviews. c) Diffusion of public speeches as current news. d) Reproductions of works of art in catalogues for auctions in France (subject to regulatory restrictions). 4. Parody, pastiche and caricature, "taking into account the usage of the genre". 5. Acts necessary to access a database within the limits of the agreed use. - But how can this be true? Orange clearly does not fall into any of the excluded uses, and I must release my software with some sort of licensing statement (even the lack of a statement is a statement in my jurisdiction). But it appears this ruling would mean all breaches could only ever be contract breaches. So again, how do I have copyright for software in France? I'm genuinely trying to understand if there's some nuance here that I'm missing.
- denton-scratch 5y ago