5 ms·

Ireland Stands Its Ground Against 132 Countries Who Gang Up on Its Economy

21 points by henvic 5y ago

quattrofan 5y ago
Ireland is a joke, and this actually will prove pointless as they will be taxed at that rate regardless of whether Ireland signs up.
mriet 5y ago
"[Lower corporate taxes] have also benefited people in other countries by helping to check corporate tax hikes there." WTF? The writer just throws that in there, no justification whatsoever. It could be absolutely true -- or totally false -- but my BS alarm goes off when writers throw statements in without even attempting to explain or back them up.
- mandmandam 5y ago
  Yeah that jumped out at me too. The authors go on: > Politicians and tax collectors may grumble about it, but from the average citizen’s perspective, tax competition is more like a “race to the top.” That's patently absurd, to put it politely. To continue somewhat less politely: that this corporate arse-licking drivel is published on their webpage has permanently damaged beyond repair my opinion of this "Foundation for Economic Education". I have absolutely no interest in anything else they may have to say.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    What is absurd about that? Taxes are necessary to run society, but it's no secret that they function the same way as rent seeking. It's dead weight loss, which is bad for the economy. That's not controversial.
    - mandmandam 5y ago
      Sorry; what? Taxes function the same as rent seeking? Taxes pay for schools, roads, environmental protections; common good stuff. Rent seeking further enriches the wealthiest by 'virute' of them being wealthy. How are you confusing the two? ... It is absurd for highly profitable - and in many cases, highly exploitative - corporations to be subsidised and supported by requiring they pay less tax than the average worker. It's utterly and completely absurd that a "foundation for economic education" would spin tax havens as a "good thing" for the countries who have been robbed - much less a "win win"! There are many sources you can explore for why tax havens are lose-lose. That this "article" doesn't mention any of those reasons might clue you in as to it's level of argument. For example: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2019/09/tackling-global-tax-havens-shaxon.htm https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2019/09/tackling-...
      - missedthecue 5y ago
        Rent seeking describes an economic situation where existing wealth is taken without creating new wealth in exchange for it, such as offering a competitively priced product or service. This is what happens when taxation occurs. It doesn't matter what the money is spent on after it is taken; that doesn't change that fact that rent seeking occurred. If a monopoly company raises prices 50% and then gives all of the proceeds to Doctors Without Borders, or heck the government itself, it doesn't suddenly make it not rent seeking.
        mandmandam 5y ago
        > It doesn't matter what the money is spent on after it is taken; that doesn't change that fact that rent seeking occurred. It does matter. It matters a whole lot. Saying it doesn't reduces your argument to a purely semantic one; and a very stretched, very pointless argument it is.
        missedthecue 5y ago
        It's not pointless. The point is that competition is healthy, whether it's in regard to the cost of milk or the cost of taxes. Monopolies are economically inefficient and make us poorer on net.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      Ok, then tax the rent seeking instead of productive work. Land value taxes have a negative deadweight loss. It also applies to every tax on other monopolies or externalities.
    - PostThisTooFast 5y ago
      "rent seeking" Just as informative as "zero day." We have lots of words that mean stuff. Use them.
    - 8note 5y ago
      Taxes pay for the essential infrastructure for economies to flourish. Eg. Ocean based trade all depends on american tax dollars paying to secure ocean shipping routes Or, contract dispute resolution. Property ownership on the other hand is pure deadweight. That's not controversial whatsoever
    - anemoiac 5y ago
      I think the controversy here lies in assuming that "the economy" == society and that, therefore, anything that is "bad for the economy" is also bad for society. I'm not claiming this is your perspective, but the quote provided by the comment you responded to seems to suggest it is the article's.
      - missedthecue 5y ago
        Anything bad for the economy makes society poorer on net, which is why line going up is seen as good, while line going down is seen as bad.
        anemoiac 5y ago
        Of course, but that’s a simplistic perspective. Economics textbooks may presume that growth is always good, but growth must be balanced with its social and environmental impacts in the real world.
- Proven 5y ago
  Why should they justify common sense statements? Your lack of basic understanding of economics doesn't justify your complaints. "Low taxes good". In your expert opinion, what kind of justification would be needed to justify this statement? Globalists and socialists, if you like your high taxes you can keep your high taxes. Kudos to Ireland!
GDC7 5y ago
12.5 or 15 is not that big of a difference Ireland should focus on building a strong fiscal regime for foundations and LLCs. They'll be the new tool used globally when the 15% thing comes into operation
- mandmandam 5y ago
  Many corporations in Ireland pay much less than the 12.5% figure; more like 0.3% for some. And this is with the blessing and silence of our politicians, who have actively prevented details of such dealings from being printed. They've gone as far as deleting CCTV footage and records from meetings.
8note 5y ago
I'd like to see countries only accept local ownership of property. Foreign IP owners must partner with local businesses(which own the IP for that country) You could have foreign ownership of said partners, but they'd be paying local taxes, and moving money out of the country as individuals
randyrand 5y ago
When the worlds oil companies all agree on a rate for selling oil - we call that a cartel. I don't see why this is any different. Governments provide government services in exchange for your tax money.
hazza_n_dazza 5y ago
What a crap article. We built our great societies with taxes. Kudos to Biden for trying to make the bastards pay an almost reasonable amount.
Proven 5y ago
You know how socialistic West Europe has become when 12.5% is considered low. Businesses operate with a 5% margin. But when criminal organization known as State takes 12.5%, that's considered a good deal for the victim. What's missing in the article is comparison with times when socialism wasn't the norm.
nuc1e0n 5y ago
Doesn't Biden claim to be Irish? Surely his countrymen will agree to his plan

21 points by henvic 5y ago

Ireland is a joke, and this actually will prove pointless as they will be taxed at that rate regardless of whether Ireland signs up.

mriet 5y ago

"[Lower corporate taxes] have also benefited people in other countries by helping to check corporate tax hikes there." WTF? The writer just throws that in there, no justification whatsoever. It could be absolutely true -- or totally false -- but my BS alarm goes off when writers throw statements in without even attempting to explain or back them up.

mandmandam 5y ago
Yeah that jumped out at me too. The authors go on: > Politicians and tax collectors may grumble about it, but from the average citizen’s perspective, tax competition is more like a “race to the top.” That's patently absurd, to put it politely. To continue somewhat less politely: that this corporate arse-licking drivel is published on their webpage has permanently damaged beyond repair my opinion of this "Foundation for Economic Education". I have absolutely no interest in anything else they may have to say.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  What is absurd about that? Taxes are necessary to run society, but it's no secret that they function the same way as rent seeking. It's dead weight loss, which is bad for the economy. That's not controversial.
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    Sorry; what? Taxes function the same as rent seeking? Taxes pay for schools, roads, environmental protections; common good stuff. Rent seeking further enriches the wealthiest by 'virute' of them being wealthy. How are you confusing the two? ... It is absurd for highly profitable - and in many cases, highly exploitative - corporations to be subsidised and supported by requiring they pay less tax than the average worker. It's utterly and completely absurd that a "foundation for economic education" would spin tax havens as a "good thing" for the countries who have been robbed - much less a "win win"! There are many sources you can explore for why tax havens are lose-lose. That this "article" doesn't mention any of those reasons might clue you in as to it's level of argument. For example: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2019/09/tackling-global-tax-havens-shaxon.htm https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2019/09/tackling-...
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      Rent seeking describes an economic situation where existing wealth is taken without creating new wealth in exchange for it, such as offering a competitively priced product or service. This is what happens when taxation occurs. It doesn't matter what the money is spent on after it is taken; that doesn't change that fact that rent seeking occurred. If a monopoly company raises prices 50% and then gives all of the proceeds to Doctors Without Borders, or heck the government itself, it doesn't suddenly make it not rent seeking.
      - mandmandam 5y ago
        > It doesn't matter what the money is spent on after it is taken; that doesn't change that fact that rent seeking occurred. It does matter. It matters a whole lot. Saying it doesn't reduces your argument to a purely semantic one; and a very stretched, very pointless argument it is.
        missedthecue 5y ago
        It's not pointless. The point is that competition is healthy, whether it's in regard to the cost of milk or the cost of taxes. Monopolies are economically inefficient and make us poorer on net.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    Ok, then tax the rent seeking instead of productive work. Land value taxes have a negative deadweight loss. It also applies to every tax on other monopolies or externalities.
  - PostThisTooFast 5y ago
    "rent seeking" Just as informative as "zero day." We have lots of words that mean stuff. Use them.
  - 8note 5y ago
    Taxes pay for the essential infrastructure for economies to flourish. Eg. Ocean based trade all depends on american tax dollars paying to secure ocean shipping routes Or, contract dispute resolution. Property ownership on the other hand is pure deadweight. That's not controversial whatsoever
  - anemoiac 5y ago
    I think the controversy here lies in assuming that "the economy" == society and that, therefore, anything that is "bad for the economy" is also bad for society. I'm not claiming this is your perspective, but the quote provided by the comment you responded to seems to suggest it is the article's.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      Anything bad for the economy makes society poorer on net, which is why line going up is seen as good, while line going down is seen as bad.
      - anemoiac 5y ago
        Of course, but that’s a simplistic perspective. Economics textbooks may presume that growth is always good, but growth must be balanced with its social and environmental impacts in the real world.
Proven 5y ago
Why should they justify common sense statements? Your lack of basic understanding of economics doesn't justify your complaints. "Low taxes good". In your expert opinion, what kind of justification would be needed to justify this statement? Globalists and socialists, if you like your high taxes you can keep your high taxes. Kudos to Ireland!

GDC7 5y ago

12.5 or 15 is not that big of a difference Ireland should focus on building a strong fiscal regime for foundations and LLCs. They'll be the new tool used globally when the 15% thing comes into operation

mandmandam 5y ago
Many corporations in Ireland pay much less than the 12.5% figure; more like 0.3% for some. And this is with the blessing and silence of our politicians, who have actively prevented details of such dealings from being printed. They've gone as far as deleting CCTV footage and records from meetings.

8note 5y ago

I'd like to see countries only accept local ownership of property. Foreign IP owners must partner with local businesses(which own the IP for that country) You could have foreign ownership of said partners, but they'd be paying local taxes, and moving money out of the country as individuals

randyrand 5y ago

When the worlds oil companies all agree on a rate for selling oil - we call that a cartel. I don't see why this is any different. Governments provide government services in exchange for your tax money.

hazza_n_dazza 5y ago

What a crap article. We built our great societies with taxes. Kudos to Biden for trying to make the bastards pay an almost reasonable amount.

Proven 5y ago

You know how socialistic West Europe has become when 12.5% is considered low. Businesses operate with a 5% margin. But when criminal organization known as State takes 12.5%, that's considered a good deal for the victim. What's missing in the article is comparison with times when socialism wasn't the norm.

nuc1e0n 5y ago

Doesn't Biden claim to be Irish? Surely his countrymen will agree to his plan