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Motorcycles turn at speed by a similar principle, though the cones arrangement is a bit flipped around. I usually demonstrate it with two solo cups put mouth-t

Motorcycles turn at speed by a similar principle, though the cones arrangement is a bit flipped around. I usually demonstrate it with two solo cups put mouth-to-mouth, to make a pair of facing cones that represents the motorcycle tire. The starting condition is that you're above parking lot speeds, and the bike is stable and is dynamically inclined to stay perfectly upright. To go left, you turn the bars right to upset the stable bike onto the left cone, and it goes left. To go right you turn the bars left and it upsets the bike onto the right cone, and goes right.

foepys 5y ago
This can also be easily experienced with a bicycle. Just push the handlebar forward on one side and watch/feel it tip over to that side instead of the other side where the wheel is pointing to. Just be careful when doing this and don't fall.
- AnotherGoodName 5y ago
  In fact even for a bicycle at the lowest speeds counter-steer is required. Now that people have read this there will be a whole new group of people who on their next bike ride will think "According to theory i must be subconsciously turning the handlebars left in order to perform a right hand turn?" And then will you notice yourself doing it. It's quite remarkable. All those years you thought you turned the handlebars into the turn. You've actually been turning them the other way subconsciously in order to lean into the turn.
  - dharmab 5y ago
    One of the ways I keep myself occupied on long empty highway rides is to turn my cruise control on and keep myself in the lane by "punching" my handlebar. Punch the left side to turn left and the right side to turn right.
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      I’m completely lost now. You’re talking about a motorcycle? I didn’t know any of them had cruise control. I think the parent post is talking about a push bike. But on the off chance there is a push bike with cruise control…
      - dharmab 5y ago
        Yes, I'm talking about motorcycles. Most touring bikes have cruise control these days. Ducati's newest Multistrada even has radar cruise control and auto-braking.
        hammock 5y ago
        Dang that sounds awesome. And it's only $25k. Problem is i would kill myself on a bike
        dharmab 5y ago
        The risk is definitely quite great and requires personal responsibility. Avoiding drug and alcohol use and using modern safety gear (not DOT junk) greatly reduces the probability of serious injury, but cannot eliminate it. It is a fantastic pastime, though. There's always dirt riding, track riding, and mountain biking to scratch the itch without traffic!
        xnyan 5y ago
        I loved motorcycling, but gave it up because I could not accept the risk (about 7 to 10 times more likely to die per mile driven vs a car). The most common (about 45%) cause of a motorcycle fatality is a car making a left turn into a motorcycle. I took a lot of training classes, had good gear and always practiced my situational awareness, but after my advanced riding instructor with over 35 years of experience and the best gear money can buy was killed instantly by a driver in a minivan texting while making a left turn, I gave it up. The feeling of riding a motorcycle is truly amazing and I absolutely miss it, but the risk factor is simply too high for me to be worth it.
  - haileys 5y ago
    What happens when turning a bike while riding with no hands? Does the lean induce the handlebars to counter-steer briefly, or is the counter-steer not necessarily because the lean is already happening?
    - afterburner 5y ago
      Not sure the counter-steer makes you actually turn fully the opposite direction, it might be a force you apply in opposite but overall the handlebars still turn into the turn?
      - justusthane 5y ago
        When you turn the handlebars to the right, it caused the bike to lean to the left. When you stop applying force to the handlebars, the front wheel “falls into line” with the left hand lean and they turn to the left. However, it’s so subtle that in practice you don’t feel them turn back to the direction of the turn and it fully feels like you’re steering right to turn left.
    - justusthane 5y ago
      The countersteer just causes the bike to lean. If you’re riding with no hands, the countersteer doesn’t happen. *Edit*: Maybe I’m wrong about this. There’s another comment below that says that the counter steer does happen through leaning alone.
      - arnarbi 5y ago
        I think you are right (but we could both be wrong). The way I experience countersteer is that it pulls the bottom of the bike towards the outside of the curve, in order to lean or maintain a lean. If you lean with balance it’s not needed.
        justusthane 5y ago
        I just tested it on my bike on my way home and we are both definitely right :) There's no countersteer when you lean with no hands on the handlebars.
  - joveian 5y ago
    Last time I saw this discussion I checked what I was doing and found that I don't usually countersteer when turning so it does not actually seem to be required. It was a while ago so I don't remember the details but I do remember making a very low speed turn with my hands positioned to not be able to countersteer and it worked fine. I'm guessing the alternative is to lean before turning.
    - HPsquared 5y ago
      At very low speeds (tight turns, i.e. high curvature of the bike's path), the highly-curved path requires steering into the turn. However for most turns (higher-speed) the curvature is less significant so the handlebars don't really turn at all - you do however need to apply a force to the handlebars to establish and maintain a lean into the curve - this force being in the opposite direction to the turn (i.e. when turning right, you push forward on the right handlebar).
      - Aerroon 5y ago
        >However for most turns (higher-speed) the curvature is less significant so the handlebars don't really turn at all Is it possible to turn a bicycle at higher speeds without leaning? Ie turn like a car by just turning the front wheel. I've tried it a few times and it's been very difficult.
        HPsquared 5y ago
        Horizontally, a bicycle is an inverted pendulum: to accelerate it in one direction it must lean in that direction. It's still possible to keep the frame of the bike upright in a turn but as the rider you would have to shift your weight into the turn to compensate. If you consider the whole system (bike and rider) as a point mass on a stick, it's still leaned over (centre of mass of not above the tyres) in that case.
      - joveian 5y ago
        I'm still not convinced countersteering is ever necessary since it is obviously possible to lean a bicycle without turning the handle bars at all. Why wouldn't lean first then turn the way you are turning work? Or even lean while turning the direction you want to go. I am slow in general and for me most turns are sharp and low speed.
  - roelschroeven 5y ago
    That is actually not what I experience at all. After I first read about the counter-steering thing on bicycles, I tried to observe exactly how I corner. I never was able to observe counter-steering, and forcefully counter-steering felt very wrong. I just somehow succeed in reaching the correct leaning angle for whatever turn I want to make. Whatever happens must be too subtle to notice, and/or completely subconscious.
  - hansthehorse 5y ago
    This can be demonstrated easily to someone who doesn't believe they are doing it. Just ask them to ride their motorcycle with only the right hand on the throttle and their left hand off the bar.
noir_lord 5y ago
Counter-steering. It comes intuitively if you've ever ridden a bike at more than a sedate speed.
- bolangi 5y ago
  Uh, no. Motorcycle racers learned about countersteering in the 70s. Before they had no idea.
  - noir_lord 5y ago
    You realise that motorcycles existed for literally decades before it had a name, how where they turning corners at speed, hell how was I doing it in the 90s on scramblers when I was a kid, no one taught me, it’s intuitive.
    - ksaj 5y ago
      Totally correct. At speed, you simply cannot turn without counter steering. If you tried to turn by turning your bars in the direction you wanted to go, you simply won't go there. At some point, someone noticed racing bikes counter steer really severely so you can easily see the wheel is actually pointing the opposite way. But the reality is that even at "won't fall over" speed on a bicycle, you're already doing the exact same thing. When you lean, you counter steer. Otherwise you'll high-side like a missile.
      - syncsynchalt 5y ago
        One of the Wright brothers has a quote about this (before they were airplane makers they were bicycle makers, the bicycle being the latest mechanical marvel of their time). The summary of the quote is that the action is intuitive but nobody realizes (or even admits) that they're doing it: > I have asked dozens of bicycle riders how they turn to the left. I have never found a single person who stated all the facts correctly when first asked. They almost invariably said that to turn to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made a turn to the left. [...] I have never found a non-scientific rider who had particularly noticed it and spoke of it from his own conscious observation and initiative. The existence of counter-steering is still controversial to some riders, to the point where machines like the "No B.S. Bike" were created to demonstrate it as a necessary effect: https://soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.aspx https://soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.aspx
gpsx 5y ago
Just to add this explicitly, to expand on some specifics, motorcycles have the added complexity of angular momentum and its effects. As you mention, turning the wheel effects your lean angle through angular momentum conservation. The cone then is the dominant factor causing the bike to turn. The speed matters because as the speed is faster, a smaller angle change in the handlebars corresponds to a bigger sideways tilt motion of the bike.

foepys 5y ago

This can also be easily experienced with a bicycle. Just push the handlebar forward on one side and watch/feel it tip over to that side instead of the other side where the wheel is pointing to. Just be careful when doing this and don't fall.

AnotherGoodName 5y ago
In fact even for a bicycle at the lowest speeds counter-steer is required. Now that people have read this there will be a whole new group of people who on their next bike ride will think "According to theory i must be subconsciously turning the handlebars left in order to perform a right hand turn?" And then will you notice yourself doing it. It's quite remarkable. All those years you thought you turned the handlebars into the turn. You've actually been turning them the other way subconsciously in order to lean into the turn.
- dharmab 5y ago
  One of the ways I keep myself occupied on long empty highway rides is to turn my cruise control on and keep myself in the lane by "punching" my handlebar. Punch the left side to turn left and the right side to turn right.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    I’m completely lost now. You’re talking about a motorcycle? I didn’t know any of them had cruise control. I think the parent post is talking about a push bike. But on the off chance there is a push bike with cruise control…
    - dharmab 5y ago
      Yes, I'm talking about motorcycles. Most touring bikes have cruise control these days. Ducati's newest Multistrada even has radar cruise control and auto-braking.
      - hammock 5y ago
        Dang that sounds awesome. And it's only $25k. Problem is i would kill myself on a bike
        dharmab 5y ago
        The risk is definitely quite great and requires personal responsibility. Avoiding drug and alcohol use and using modern safety gear (not DOT junk) greatly reduces the probability of serious injury, but cannot eliminate it. It is a fantastic pastime, though. There's always dirt riding, track riding, and mountain biking to scratch the itch without traffic!
        xnyan 5y ago
        I loved motorcycling, but gave it up because I could not accept the risk (about 7 to 10 times more likely to die per mile driven vs a car). The most common (about 45%) cause of a motorcycle fatality is a car making a left turn into a motorcycle. I took a lot of training classes, had good gear and always practiced my situational awareness, but after my advanced riding instructor with over 35 years of experience and the best gear money can buy was killed instantly by a driver in a minivan texting while making a left turn, I gave it up. The feeling of riding a motorcycle is truly amazing and I absolutely miss it, but the risk factor is simply too high for me to be worth it.
- haileys 5y ago
  What happens when turning a bike while riding with no hands? Does the lean induce the handlebars to counter-steer briefly, or is the counter-steer not necessarily because the lean is already happening?
  - afterburner 5y ago
    Not sure the counter-steer makes you actually turn fully the opposite direction, it might be a force you apply in opposite but overall the handlebars still turn into the turn?
    - justusthane 5y ago
      When you turn the handlebars to the right, it caused the bike to lean to the left. When you stop applying force to the handlebars, the front wheel “falls into line” with the left hand lean and they turn to the left. However, it’s so subtle that in practice you don’t feel them turn back to the direction of the turn and it fully feels like you’re steering right to turn left.
  - justusthane 5y ago
    The countersteer just causes the bike to lean. If you’re riding with no hands, the countersteer doesn’t happen. *Edit*: Maybe I’m wrong about this. There’s another comment below that says that the counter steer does happen through leaning alone.
    - arnarbi 5y ago
      I think you are right (but we could both be wrong). The way I experience countersteer is that it pulls the bottom of the bike towards the outside of the curve, in order to lean or maintain a lean. If you lean with balance it’s not needed.
      - justusthane 5y ago
        I just tested it on my bike on my way home and we are both definitely right :) There's no countersteer when you lean with no hands on the handlebars.
- joveian 5y ago
  Last time I saw this discussion I checked what I was doing and found that I don't usually countersteer when turning so it does not actually seem to be required. It was a while ago so I don't remember the details but I do remember making a very low speed turn with my hands positioned to not be able to countersteer and it worked fine. I'm guessing the alternative is to lean before turning.
  - HPsquared 5y ago
    At very low speeds (tight turns, i.e. high curvature of the bike's path), the highly-curved path requires steering into the turn. However for most turns (higher-speed) the curvature is less significant so the handlebars don't really turn at all - you do however need to apply a force to the handlebars to establish and maintain a lean into the curve - this force being in the opposite direction to the turn (i.e. when turning right, you push forward on the right handlebar).
    - Aerroon 5y ago
      >However for most turns (higher-speed) the curvature is less significant so the handlebars don't really turn at all Is it possible to turn a bicycle at higher speeds without leaning? Ie turn like a car by just turning the front wheel. I've tried it a few times and it's been very difficult.
      - HPsquared 5y ago
        Horizontally, a bicycle is an inverted pendulum: to accelerate it in one direction it must lean in that direction. It's still possible to keep the frame of the bike upright in a turn but as the rider you would have to shift your weight into the turn to compensate. If you consider the whole system (bike and rider) as a point mass on a stick, it's still leaned over (centre of mass of not above the tyres) in that case.
    - joveian 5y ago
      I'm still not convinced countersteering is ever necessary since it is obviously possible to lean a bicycle without turning the handle bars at all. Why wouldn't lean first then turn the way you are turning work? Or even lean while turning the direction you want to go. I am slow in general and for me most turns are sharp and low speed.
- roelschroeven 5y ago
  That is actually not what I experience at all. After I first read about the counter-steering thing on bicycles, I tried to observe exactly how I corner. I never was able to observe counter-steering, and forcefully counter-steering felt very wrong. I just somehow succeed in reaching the correct leaning angle for whatever turn I want to make. Whatever happens must be too subtle to notice, and/or completely subconscious.
- hansthehorse 5y ago
  This can be demonstrated easily to someone who doesn't believe they are doing it. Just ask them to ride their motorcycle with only the right hand on the throttle and their left hand off the bar.

noir_lord 5y ago

Counter-steering. It comes intuitively if you've ever ridden a bike at more than a sedate speed.

bolangi 5y ago
Uh, no. Motorcycle racers learned about countersteering in the 70s. Before they had no idea.
- noir_lord 5y ago
  You realise that motorcycles existed for literally decades before it had a name, how where they turning corners at speed, hell how was I doing it in the 90s on scramblers when I was a kid, no one taught me, it’s intuitive.
  - ksaj 5y ago
    Totally correct. At speed, you simply cannot turn without counter steering. If you tried to turn by turning your bars in the direction you wanted to go, you simply won't go there. At some point, someone noticed racing bikes counter steer really severely so you can easily see the wheel is actually pointing the opposite way. But the reality is that even at "won't fall over" speed on a bicycle, you're already doing the exact same thing. When you lean, you counter steer. Otherwise you'll high-side like a missile.
    - syncsynchalt 5y ago
      One of the Wright brothers has a quote about this (before they were airplane makers they were bicycle makers, the bicycle being the latest mechanical marvel of their time). The summary of the quote is that the action is intuitive but nobody realizes (or even admits) that they're doing it: > I have asked dozens of bicycle riders how they turn to the left. I have never found a single person who stated all the facts correctly when first asked. They almost invariably said that to turn to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made a turn to the left. [...] I have never found a non-scientific rider who had particularly noticed it and spoke of it from his own conscious observation and initiative. The existence of counter-steering is still controversial to some riders, to the point where machines like the "No B.S. Bike" were created to demonstrate it as a necessary effect: https://soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.aspx https://soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.aspx

gpsx 5y ago

Just to add this explicitly, to expand on some specifics, motorcycles have the added complexity of angular momentum and its effects. As you mention, turning the wheel effects your lean angle through angular momentum conservation. The cone then is the dominant factor causing the bike to turn. The speed matters because as the speed is faster, a smaller angle change in the handlebars corresponds to a bigger sideways tilt motion of the bike.