4 ms·

Or $68,387,200 USD as of today

by exdsq 5y ago

lucb1e 5y ago
So how do we prevent this? Not everyone can cryptographically verify software updates, like I can't expect my mom to do that, and that is assuming you can reliably determine which key to use for verification in the first place, and that you trust whoever owns that key, and that this signer properly checked all commits or trusts the people that did. Perhaps a start would be not to keep more than, say, a fifth of your cryptocurrency in a single place if you have many millions' worth?
- morpheos137 5y ago
  I good start would be to write security critical software right the first time and not require frequent updates if at all. Every time an update happens it imposes a time cost and security risk on users. No other engineering discipline has the concept of updates to an in use product. When Toyota sells you a car if it has a "bug" in a control arm that results in it breaking and you losing control on the highway there is no software update. There is an NHTSA investigation and a recall.
- yashap 5y ago
  I’m far, far from an expert, but it seems to me that the unforgiving “software is the law, nothing can be reversed” nature of crypto means that all sorts of vulnerabilities and/or mistakes can instantly lead to you losing all your money. It feels inherent to the system - the core reasons behind these weaknesses are also the core strengths of crypto. You can patch individual vulnerabilities, and try not to make mistakes, but it seems it’ll always be the case that if all your money gets stolen, nothing can really be done.
  - relax88 5y ago
    This is correct, and why the average end consumer will never actually use Bitcoin for anything. It may have some utility as an asset class but the crypto fan boys seem to ignore that it is largely incompatible with our current financial and legal system. I’ll happily agree with anyone that Bitcoin is an interesting and novel invention but I fail to see how it does anything useful for me other than as a speculative investment. Now that crypto markets are a parody of wildcat banks in the 1800s I won’t even touch it with a 10 foot pole.
    - exdsq 5y ago
      In early 2017 I bought breakfast every day on my way to work in Oxford with cryptocurrencies. A bacon and avocado sandwich, and a large latte. It was pretty cool to buy these items with currencies I had mined myself, or bought by trading minded coins for other currencies. I checked the other day and each of those breakfasts would be around £200 today had I saved them but I don't regret the nerdy enjoyment of paying in that way :) Edit: I found it amusing when the cafe closed a year later presumably because both owners retired after selling at the peak in early 2018.
      - relax88 5y ago
        Yeah I don’t think the convenience is what is holding it back. It’s pretty easy to pay for something with BTC. I think it’s more to do with how there is limited coin supply, no dispute or consumer protection, and then the issue of taxes. If I have to pay for breakfast I’d rather use a credit card app on my phone that has a dispute process and gives me a % cash back. In Canada those breakfasts would technically be taxable capital gains, which means calculating the adjusted cost basis based on mining input costs and then half of that taxable gain is added to your annual income. There is just no real incentive to use crypto unless you’re buying something questionable on the internet.
        exdsq 5y ago
        Maybe not in Canada but there are many countries that have different tax structures and less access to credit
  - pinkybanana 5y ago
    What has really helped me to relax with my crypto holdings was reading couple of cancer stories. Basically as how nature is, cancer can come any time and take anyones life away. Just treat Bitcoin as the nature, but a less severe version as you won't die if you lose your crypto. That said, crypto loss is very preventable. Lots of people have put lots of effort to make holding bitcoin/crypto more secure.
    - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
      This seems like a glowing endorsement to not use cryptocurrency. “Well, you know, sometimes you die”… doesn’t seem like good investment or fiat currency plan.
      - pinkybanana 5y ago
        People in invest in crypto because the gains have been ridiculously good. However some people have lost their money because of bad security or scams. You can mentally it like, you invest $1000, plan to exist when the value hits 10x and have 5% probability of losing it all, you can calculate the expected value and decide if the risk is for you. Better analogy would be "it is not worth living because you might die"
- lumost 5y ago
  Custodial services is one area where the BTC community is sorely lacking. Typically you can safely work with an independent financial advisor as your money is stored with a custodian like fidelity. Fidelity is on the hook to make basic tax reports, account statements, and provide security for your funds. Obviously a part of that security is controlling transfers and not dealing with dubious business partners. I can’t point to any vault where my money is stored, but I can reasonably bet that fidelity has enough safeguards that it won’t vanish. I wish there were more such custodians for btc assets providing “cold wallets”. BTC makes audits and other activities to verify nothings gone odd with the custodian for your and everyone else’s accounts without requiring privileged access to the ledger. Paying .05% for the price large of not having your btc vanish is a bargain.
  - pinkybanana 5y ago
    There are lots of custodians with different storage models. If you have account at some reputable service, good password and 2FA set up (non-mobile) then I think accidents are always super ultra-rare or basically nonexistant. Of course you also have to just HODL and for example not send your crypto to some scammer (that ofc isn't a problem that a custodian will solve anyway). Have to note that when there are millions or maybe hundred of millions of people with crypto wallets, there will be also some amount of "false positives" reporting lost BTC, for example people who have sent their BTC to wrong address drunk or high, and then afterwards think that its the platforms fault.
- SquishyPanda23 5y ago
  Unless you want everyone to understand PKI, the solution is to use a payment system where transactions are reversible in cases of fraud.
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    Except where reversing transactions is how the fraud is conducted. Such as Ebay buyers pretending they didn't receive their goods. Or scams in the form of "I'll send you some money then you forward it to my friend" but the sender uses a way that's reversible for a longer period than the victim and reverses it in the window of difference between them.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > Not everyone can cryptographically verify software updates In this case don't use cryptocurrencies, or at least don't hold your own coins and delegate that to a third-party (keep them in an exchange, etc). Keeping your coins in a self-hosted wallet is like handling millions in physical cash or precious metals. You can do it, but it requires responsibility and precautions, which is why in the real world it's typically delegated to financial institutions (as in you keep that cash in the bank) and they themselves use precautions such as moving physical cash in armored trucks. With this kind of amount, you need to take the appropriate precautions and have (or build) a digital "armored truck" and definitely not keep them on an online machine. Use a hardware wallet at the very least, or "build your own" hardware wallet by using an air-gapped machine with no direct access to the internet.
  - pinkybanana 5y ago
    > Keeping your coins in a self-hosted wallet is like handling millions in physical cash or precious metals. Definitely not. I'm sure that for someone who has middle-level skills at basic IT and basic understanding of cryptocurrencies, safe storage and handling of cryptocurrencies is 10x safer than handling the same amount of physical cash or gold at home. Considering also that you want to use your assets. If I were routinely transfering tens of thousands worth of cash from my home to somewhere to spend it would surely catch some attention, I would guess. With crypto I can just use it from safety of my own home at online shops and similar.
- exdsq 5y ago
  I think the UX of crypto is its biggest failing. People don't need to know how SWIFT works to send a transaction and they shouldn't need to understand cryptography to use cryptocurrencies. Hopefully companies focus on solving these issues so anyone can open an account and use crypto just like cash but with a few of the extra advantages you get from crypto.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  You don't. People want full control, with 0 oversight. Such incidents are going to be not uncommon. In all the solutions you've provided, they all require the user to do something other than click a random popup on outdated software. The issue is a people problem, not a tech problem.

Or $68,387,200 USD as of today

by exdsq 5y ago

Or $68,387,200 USD as of today

So how do we prevent this? Not everyone can cryptographically verify software updates, like I can't expect my mom to do that, and that is assuming you can reliably determine which key to use for verification in the first place, and that you trust whoever owns that key, and that this signer properly checked all commits or trusts the people that did. Perhaps a start would be not to keep more than, say, a fifth of your cryptocurrency in a single place if you have many millions' worth?

morpheos137 5y ago
I good start would be to write security critical software right the first time and not require frequent updates if at all. Every time an update happens it imposes a time cost and security risk on users. No other engineering discipline has the concept of updates to an in use product. When Toyota sells you a car if it has a "bug" in a control arm that results in it breaking and you losing control on the highway there is no software update. There is an NHTSA investigation and a recall.
yashap 5y ago
I’m far, far from an expert, but it seems to me that the unforgiving “software is the law, nothing can be reversed” nature of crypto means that all sorts of vulnerabilities and/or mistakes can instantly lead to you losing all your money. It feels inherent to the system - the core reasons behind these weaknesses are also the core strengths of crypto. You can patch individual vulnerabilities, and try not to make mistakes, but it seems it’ll always be the case that if all your money gets stolen, nothing can really be done.
- relax88 5y ago
  This is correct, and why the average end consumer will never actually use Bitcoin for anything. It may have some utility as an asset class but the crypto fan boys seem to ignore that it is largely incompatible with our current financial and legal system. I’ll happily agree with anyone that Bitcoin is an interesting and novel invention but I fail to see how it does anything useful for me other than as a speculative investment. Now that crypto markets are a parody of wildcat banks in the 1800s I won’t even touch it with a 10 foot pole.
  - exdsq 5y ago
    In early 2017 I bought breakfast every day on my way to work in Oxford with cryptocurrencies. A bacon and avocado sandwich, and a large latte. It was pretty cool to buy these items with currencies I had mined myself, or bought by trading minded coins for other currencies. I checked the other day and each of those breakfasts would be around £200 today had I saved them but I don't regret the nerdy enjoyment of paying in that way :) Edit: I found it amusing when the cafe closed a year later presumably because both owners retired after selling at the peak in early 2018.
    - relax88 5y ago
      Yeah I don’t think the convenience is what is holding it back. It’s pretty easy to pay for something with BTC. I think it’s more to do with how there is limited coin supply, no dispute or consumer protection, and then the issue of taxes. If I have to pay for breakfast I’d rather use a credit card app on my phone that has a dispute process and gives me a % cash back. In Canada those breakfasts would technically be taxable capital gains, which means calculating the adjusted cost basis based on mining input costs and then half of that taxable gain is added to your annual income. There is just no real incentive to use crypto unless you’re buying something questionable on the internet.
      - exdsq 5y ago
        Maybe not in Canada but there are many countries that have different tax structures and less access to credit
- pinkybanana 5y ago
  What has really helped me to relax with my crypto holdings was reading couple of cancer stories. Basically as how nature is, cancer can come any time and take anyones life away. Just treat Bitcoin as the nature, but a less severe version as you won't die if you lose your crypto. That said, crypto loss is very preventable. Lots of people have put lots of effort to make holding bitcoin/crypto more secure.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    This seems like a glowing endorsement to not use cryptocurrency. “Well, you know, sometimes you die”… doesn’t seem like good investment or fiat currency plan.
    - pinkybanana 5y ago
      People in invest in crypto because the gains have been ridiculously good. However some people have lost their money because of bad security or scams. You can mentally it like, you invest $1000, plan to exist when the value hits 10x and have 5% probability of losing it all, you can calculate the expected value and decide if the risk is for you. Better analogy would be "it is not worth living because you might die"
lumost 5y ago
Custodial services is one area where the BTC community is sorely lacking. Typically you can safely work with an independent financial advisor as your money is stored with a custodian like fidelity. Fidelity is on the hook to make basic tax reports, account statements, and provide security for your funds. Obviously a part of that security is controlling transfers and not dealing with dubious business partners. I can’t point to any vault where my money is stored, but I can reasonably bet that fidelity has enough safeguards that it won’t vanish. I wish there were more such custodians for btc assets providing “cold wallets”. BTC makes audits and other activities to verify nothings gone odd with the custodian for your and everyone else’s accounts without requiring privileged access to the ledger. Paying .05% for the price large of not having your btc vanish is a bargain.
- pinkybanana 5y ago
  There are lots of custodians with different storage models. If you have account at some reputable service, good password and 2FA set up (non-mobile) then I think accidents are always super ultra-rare or basically nonexistant. Of course you also have to just HODL and for example not send your crypto to some scammer (that ofc isn't a problem that a custodian will solve anyway). Have to note that when there are millions or maybe hundred of millions of people with crypto wallets, there will be also some amount of "false positives" reporting lost BTC, for example people who have sent their BTC to wrong address drunk or high, and then afterwards think that its the platforms fault.
SquishyPanda23 5y ago
Unless you want everyone to understand PKI, the solution is to use a payment system where transactions are reversible in cases of fraud.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  Except where reversing transactions is how the fraud is conducted. Such as Ebay buyers pretending they didn't receive their goods. Or scams in the form of "I'll send you some money then you forward it to my friend" but the sender uses a way that's reversible for a longer period than the victim and reverses it in the window of difference between them.
Nextgrid 5y ago
> Not everyone can cryptographically verify software updates In this case don't use cryptocurrencies, or at least don't hold your own coins and delegate that to a third-party (keep them in an exchange, etc). Keeping your coins in a self-hosted wallet is like handling millions in physical cash or precious metals. You can do it, but it requires responsibility and precautions, which is why in the real world it's typically delegated to financial institutions (as in you keep that cash in the bank) and they themselves use precautions such as moving physical cash in armored trucks. With this kind of amount, you need to take the appropriate precautions and have (or build) a digital "armored truck" and definitely not keep them on an online machine. Use a hardware wallet at the very least, or "build your own" hardware wallet by using an air-gapped machine with no direct access to the internet.
- pinkybanana 5y ago
  > Keeping your coins in a self-hosted wallet is like handling millions in physical cash or precious metals. Definitely not. I'm sure that for someone who has middle-level skills at basic IT and basic understanding of cryptocurrencies, safe storage and handling of cryptocurrencies is 10x safer than handling the same amount of physical cash or gold at home. Considering also that you want to use your assets. If I were routinely transfering tens of thousands worth of cash from my home to somewhere to spend it would surely catch some attention, I would guess. With crypto I can just use it from safety of my own home at online shops and similar.
exdsq 5y ago
I think the UX of crypto is its biggest failing. People don't need to know how SWIFT works to send a transaction and they shouldn't need to understand cryptography to use cryptocurrencies. Hopefully companies focus on solving these issues so anyone can open an account and use crypto just like cash but with a few of the extra advantages you get from crypto.
x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
You don't. People want full control, with 0 oversight. Such incidents are going to be not uncommon. In all the solutions you've provided, they all require the user to do something other than click a random popup on outdated software. The issue is a people problem, not a tech problem.