6 ms·

Things will get really ugly once you codify special classes citizens and other US persons. It won't happen even though conservative congresspeople have been pus

Things will get really ugly once you codify special classes citizens and other US persons. It won't happen even though conservative congresspeople have been pushing for it for decades.

sjs7007 5y ago
Well you have security clearances already no?
- colordrops 5y ago
  Yes, the cohort with security clearances is very white and eurocentric, which perpetuates a racial/ethnic divide between the in and outgroups for power in the US. Yes, you can't be legally discriminated against when seeking to be a wage slave, but if you want to get into the real echelons of secrecy and power, it's status quo, and without transparency.
ipspam 5y ago
It will. Yet, any country has the right to discriminate in any way against someone wishing to enter the country. It's once those people are let in, and given citizenship or PR that they enjoy protections against discrimination. This would have to be a "moving forward policy". Anyone in the US already enjoys protection against discrimination based on place of their birth or race. In the future, it could be a condition of entry that people acknowledge they are not allowed to work in certain industries, for the government, or universities etc.
tomp 5y ago
Are you sure about that? It's the norm in Europe. E.g. you can't work for UK security services (MI5, MI6) unless one of your parents was also British, you lived in the UK for a while and you might be required to give up dual citizenship.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Are you sure about that? It's the norm in Europe. E.g. you can't work for UK security services (MI5, MI6) unless one of your parents was also British, you lived in the UK for a while and you might be required to give up dual citizenship. I think it's actually similar for US security clearances, though not explicitly codified like that. IIRC, if you're a dual citizen, you have to renounce the non-American one. Apparently it's not good enough to say "I'll renounce it if you ask," since that's conditional (on them requesting it). You have to renounce it unconditionally. I think that even applies to allied countries (e.g. no US-Canadian dual citizens). I think the US would also reject a clearance if the applicant had relatives that were in a situation that could be used to exploit them (e.g. foreign nationals, living in a non-friendly country, etc). Basically, the idea is that you shouldn't have any (discoverable) competing loyalties, and you shouldn't have anything in your life that makes you vulnerable to manipulation. Disclaimer: I have no actual expertise in this area, but I did spend an afternoon browsing the government website where they described security clearance rejection appeals.
  - jnwatson 5y ago
    I know dual citizen US folk with secret clearances. DoD is pickier with Top Secret.
    - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
      It depends on the country. You will have to renounce for some even for S.
  - christkv 5y ago
    You can get approved for secret clearance if you are a citizen of a NATO ally. I guess because you can be vetted. Higher than that I think would be hard.
  - s5300 5y ago
    > US security clearances The last U.S. administration quite clearly showed us that clearances mean utterly nothing and are a quickly bypasssble joke in the U.S.
- treis 5y ago
  Constitutional amendment that the government can't deny citizens "privileges" and that they get equal protection under the law. There's a whole mess of court cases around that and it can get complicated. But it's going to be tough to get something like you suggest past the courts.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Those don’t meaningfully apply for security clearances where an argument can be made that it exposes someone to the possibility of blackmail, etc. (such as extended family in the mainland being held hostage, which has happened)
alasdair_ 5y ago
It already happens with naturalized citizens not being allowed to be president.

Things will get really ugly once you codify special classes citizens and other US persons. It won't happen even though conservative congresspeople have been pushing for it for decades.

sjs7007 5y ago

Well you have security clearances already no?

colordrops 5y ago
Yes, the cohort with security clearances is very white and eurocentric, which perpetuates a racial/ethnic divide between the in and outgroups for power in the US. Yes, you can't be legally discriminated against when seeking to be a wage slave, but if you want to get into the real echelons of secrecy and power, it's status quo, and without transparency.

ipspam 5y ago

It will. Yet, any country has the right to discriminate in any way against someone wishing to enter the country. It's once those people are let in, and given citizenship or PR that they enjoy protections against discrimination. This would have to be a "moving forward policy". Anyone in the US already enjoys protection against discrimination based on place of their birth or race. In the future, it could be a condition of entry that people acknowledge they are not allowed to work in certain industries, for the government, or universities etc.

tomp 5y ago

Are you sure about that? It's the norm in Europe. E.g. you can't work for UK security services (MI5, MI6) unless one of your parents was also British, you lived in the UK for a while and you might be required to give up dual citizenship.

tablespoon 5y ago
> Are you sure about that? It's the norm in Europe. E.g. you can't work for UK security services (MI5, MI6) unless one of your parents was also British, you lived in the UK for a while and you might be required to give up dual citizenship. I think it's actually similar for US security clearances, though not explicitly codified like that. IIRC, if you're a dual citizen, you have to renounce the non-American one. Apparently it's not good enough to say "I'll renounce it if you ask," since that's conditional (on them requesting it). You have to renounce it unconditionally. I think that even applies to allied countries (e.g. no US-Canadian dual citizens). I think the US would also reject a clearance if the applicant had relatives that were in a situation that could be used to exploit them (e.g. foreign nationals, living in a non-friendly country, etc). Basically, the idea is that you shouldn't have any (discoverable) competing loyalties, and you shouldn't have anything in your life that makes you vulnerable to manipulation. Disclaimer: I have no actual expertise in this area, but I did spend an afternoon browsing the government website where they described security clearance rejection appeals.
- jnwatson 5y ago
  I know dual citizen US folk with secret clearances. DoD is pickier with Top Secret.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    It depends on the country. You will have to renounce for some even for S.
- christkv 5y ago
  You can get approved for secret clearance if you are a citizen of a NATO ally. I guess because you can be vetted. Higher than that I think would be hard.
- s5300 5y ago
  > US security clearances The last U.S. administration quite clearly showed us that clearances mean utterly nothing and are a quickly bypasssble joke in the U.S.
treis 5y ago
Constitutional amendment that the government can't deny citizens "privileges" and that they get equal protection under the law. There's a whole mess of court cases around that and it can get complicated. But it's going to be tough to get something like you suggest past the courts.
- lazide 5y ago
  Those don’t meaningfully apply for security clearances where an argument can be made that it exposes someone to the possibility of blackmail, etc. (such as extended family in the mainland being held hostage, which has happened)

alasdair_ 5y ago

It already happens with naturalized citizens not being allowed to be president.