7 ms·

>>At some point one applies Occam's razor, but you're never going to convince everyone, especially those who don't _want_ to believe (See the 9-11 truthers.) I

>>At some point one applies Occam's razor, but you're never going to convince everyone, especially those who don't _want_ to believe (See the 9-11 truthers.) I would argue that those who you say "don't want to believe" are as idignant as you are. From your comment, it seems that you accept the official story. What would it take for you to believe anything different about these matters? You are actively ignoring evidence that might not support what you already take to be true. This is bad science. The public is dogmatic in their Most of the US is happy with this position though. It's easier to just accept the official story and not to question any of it, even when the evidence contradicting these events begins to pile up (liquid metal at the WTC, WTC7, the assasination of Bhutto after she claims Osama bin Laden is dead, etc. there are many, many more suspicious facts that seem to contradict the official story). And then to invoke Occam's razor? What is simpler: to accept what is being fed to you from one source? Or the notion that there is much more going on in all of these events, and that the government is trying to prevent the public from realizing certain details for whatever reason? Does that really seem too crazy to be true?

nate_meurer 15y ago
I think the parent is invoking occam's razor against the idea that our government is capable of organizing a conspiracy of this complexity. For my part, it's not so much that I trust what the government says; it is rather that I trust their inability to keep secrets of this magnitude.
joezydeco 15y ago
nate has a point. Why do we all believe thousands of military and civilians can keep a secret like this for decades when an oral sex act in the White House can be made public within a year?
- joejohnson 15y ago
  I don't know. But it would be wrong to assume that it is impossible, and thus to ignore any evidence that might say otherwise. How many other sex scandals do you think have occured in high offices, and were never discovered by the public? I'm sure there are some that weren't discovered until much later: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scand... And additionally, there have been examples of the US military keeping large secrets for decades. One example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident So why does it seem impossible that there is more to the story about 9/11 and Osama bin Laden than is being reported by the US gov? (especially when there is evidence which raises unanswered questions or pokes holes in the official stories)
  - nate_meurer 15y ago
    Not impossible, I'll grant you that. It's also possible that the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center was the work of aliens. There is some evidence that aliens have infiltrated the U.S. government, and this would go a long way toward explaining why the NIST report on the WTC collapse -- clearly manipulated -- doesn't even mention the possibility of controlled demolition, let alone the involvement of extra-terrestrials. Have you looked into this possibility at all?
    - joejohnson 15y ago
      I personally haven't, and I don't think anyone has because there isn't evidence that points to extra-terrestrials. There is evidence that points toward controlled demolition. The real problem with discussions like this is that minority views are quickly dismissed on the basis of "conspiracy theories". It is impossible to have a real debate about these topics. But it is still frustrating to see so many people actively ignoring facts that are contrary to their pre-concieved views.
      - nate_meurer 15y ago
        Ok, now I know what you're up to. You can't fool me by pretending to be "objective". Listen up, you and the rest of Stanley Jones' cabal can't suppress the truth forever. Read this open letter to your fearless leader, and you'll see that your "secrets" are already out: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/OpenLetterToJones.html http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/OpenLetterToJones.html That's right. We already know. And where exactly do you think the U.S got the advanced directed-energy weapons that you would like us to believe don't exist? That's right. It all starts at Roswell, '57. Shit, for all I know, you're one of them.
        joejohnson 15y ago
        You are trying to strawman my argument. Aliens are ridiculous; that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. There are rational questions posed by people you are labeling as conspiracy theorists. You are trying to discredit them by exaggerating these claims. Again, there is some evidence of a cover up; there is no evidence of alien involvement. Your arguments are puerile and a distraction from what we are talking about.
bdunbar 15y ago
You are actively ignoring evidence that might not support what you already take to be true. This is bad science. This isn't science. It's politics and it's extension, war.
- vynch 15y ago
  platitude alert!!
  - bdunbar 15y ago
    I never claimed to be original. I could have gone long-winded, gotten into Clausewitz, made a side trip into Westphalia with a detour around the Tower of London. But life is short. My liege, and madam, to expostulate What majesty should be, what duty is, What day is day, night night, and time is time, Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time; Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit, And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, I will be brief. Your noble son is mad. . . .

nate_meurer 15y ago

I think the parent is invoking occam's razor against the idea that our government is capable of organizing a conspiracy of this complexity. For my part, it's not so much that I trust what the government says; it is rather that I trust their inability to keep secrets of this magnitude.

joezydeco 15y ago

nate has a point. Why do we all believe thousands of military and civilians can keep a secret like this for decades when an oral sex act in the White House can be made public within a year?

joejohnson 15y ago
I don't know. But it would be wrong to assume that it is impossible, and thus to ignore any evidence that might say otherwise. How many other sex scandals do you think have occured in high offices, and were never discovered by the public? I'm sure there are some that weren't discovered until much later: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scand... And additionally, there have been examples of the US military keeping large secrets for decades. One example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident So why does it seem impossible that there is more to the story about 9/11 and Osama bin Laden than is being reported by the US gov? (especially when there is evidence which raises unanswered questions or pokes holes in the official stories)
- nate_meurer 15y ago
  Not impossible, I'll grant you that. It's also possible that the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center was the work of aliens. There is some evidence that aliens have infiltrated the U.S. government, and this would go a long way toward explaining why the NIST report on the WTC collapse -- clearly manipulated -- doesn't even mention the possibility of controlled demolition, let alone the involvement of extra-terrestrials. Have you looked into this possibility at all?
  - joejohnson 15y ago
    I personally haven't, and I don't think anyone has because there isn't evidence that points to extra-terrestrials. There is evidence that points toward controlled demolition. The real problem with discussions like this is that minority views are quickly dismissed on the basis of "conspiracy theories". It is impossible to have a real debate about these topics. But it is still frustrating to see so many people actively ignoring facts that are contrary to their pre-concieved views.
    - nate_meurer 15y ago
      Ok, now I know what you're up to. You can't fool me by pretending to be "objective". Listen up, you and the rest of Stanley Jones' cabal can't suppress the truth forever. Read this open letter to your fearless leader, and you'll see that your "secrets" are already out: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/OpenLetterToJones.html http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/OpenLetterToJones.html That's right. We already know. And where exactly do you think the U.S got the advanced directed-energy weapons that you would like us to believe don't exist? That's right. It all starts at Roswell, '57. Shit, for all I know, you're one of them.
      - joejohnson 15y ago
        You are trying to strawman my argument. Aliens are ridiculous; that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. There are rational questions posed by people you are labeling as conspiracy theorists. You are trying to discredit them by exaggerating these claims. Again, there is some evidence of a cover up; there is no evidence of alien involvement. Your arguments are puerile and a distraction from what we are talking about.

bdunbar 15y ago

You are actively ignoring evidence that might not support what you already take to be true. This is bad science. This isn't science. It's politics and it's extension, war.

vynch 15y ago
platitude alert!!
- bdunbar 15y ago
  I never claimed to be original. I could have gone long-winded, gotten into Clausewitz, made a side trip into Westphalia with a detour around the Tower of London. But life is short. My liege, and madam, to expostulate What majesty should be, what duty is, What day is day, night night, and time is time, Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time; Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit, And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, I will be brief. Your noble son is mad. . . .