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I agree with most of that. To me the most terrifying thing is the intense uninhibited popularity of articles describing some of China's activities as genocide.

by ilaksh 5y ago

I agree with most of that. To me the most terrifying thing is the intense uninhibited popularity of articles describing some of China's activities as genocide. This to me is the type of ultimate 'rationale' that will be used to motivate hundreds of millions of Americans to work hard to attempt to murder hundreds of millions of Chinese. And visa versa, American wartime activities will be used to motivate the Chinese to murder us. But I believe if the strategic advantages the US enjoys, such as shipping lanes and the relationship with Taiwan manufacturing, are disrupted, then the US dollar could lose more than half of it's value and therefore drastically reduce the wealth of more than a billion people. This is the real thing that will motivate WWIII, with all of the propaganda about what monsters the other side is used to dehumanize and make the mass killing seem moral.

lostlogin 5y ago
> describing some of China's activities as genocide How would you describe what’s going on with the Uyghurs (or Tibet for that matter)?
- pasabagi 5y ago
  Genocide specifically refers to the organized extermination of a people. That's not what's happening in Xinjiang. Nobody claims that. They claim it's a 'cultural genocide', which is a very incendiary way of saying China is trying to stamp out Uyghur culture. That's also awful, but it's not genocide.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    > That's not what's happening in Xinjiang. Nobody claims that. There are claims of genocide, including ones made the The US Secretary of State and UK parliament. They are not outliers with these claims. There are reports of rape, gang rape, torture, forced sterilisation, forced abortion and forced contraception. People are missing and relatives can’t find them after the Chinese state took them. Prison cities for their race have been built and are being expanded. It isn’t ovens and gas, but it’s a lot more than ‘just’ an attack on their culture. Searching “Uyghur Genocide” returns no shortage of hits and disturbing stories of vicious abuse. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55723522 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55723522 https://theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/22/uk-mps-declare-china-is-committing-genocide-against-uyghurs-in-xinjiang https://theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/22/uk-mps-declare-chi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
    - pasabagi 5y ago
      During the first world war, the UK made a lot of claims about what Germany was doing in Belgium. It turned out that these claims were untrue. The Germans were undoubtedly brutal, but they were also not nearly so monstrous as the allies made them out to be. This lead to a lot of people treating early reports of the Holocaust with skepticism. I think the chinese state is also undoubtedly brutal, but nobody claims Australia is committing genocide when they demolish aboriginal holy sites, arrest aboriginal people, or take away their children. A pattern of brutality centered around reproductive rights, the destruction of cultural symbols, and mass incarceration is common to many oppressed minorities around the world. All this stuff is obviously terrible, and China should be condemned for its reversal of a traditionally great record on minority rights, but turning the Ughyurs into proxies for an essentially cynical US-China rivalry helps noone. PS: I also imagine those reports are likely all true. Police are typically brutal. Police in authoritarian regimes are worse. That doesn't make it genocide.
      - lostlogin 5y ago
        You imagine acknowledge the reports may be true, they meet the definition, but it isn’t genocide? Amnesty don’t call it genocide, but also note that all observers are blocked from entry. https://www.amnesty.org.nz/uyghurs-nowhere-feels-safe https://www.amnesty.org.nz/uyghurs-nowhere-feels-safe
        pasabagi 5y ago
        Well, they don't meet the definition the other poster put up - unless you want to interpret it in a very loose sense that would certainly tar a lot of nations, for instance India. I'm not really attached to the word or it's definition. It just occurs to me that 'genocide' is the causus beli for every well-remembered war the west have had since WW2. When the word starts getting thrown around in the middle of a trade war, when US hegemony is being contested, when the world has a new number one in terms of economic and industrial might, well, I think its deployment is basically cynical. Insofar as it has already forced changes for (I think) the better in Chinese government policy, I'm glad. But I also think the airtime would be better spent less cynically, on countries like India, who are probably way easier to pressure and frankly just as bad. If world leaders like the UK go on air to call what's happening in Xinjiang genocide while selling arms to the Saudis so they can bomb the Houthis, then they just look about as cynical as they are. And that's what the Chinese domestic audience probably thinks, because ultimately, the west doesn't have moral credibility when it only makes a fuss over human rights when it's also in the west's strategic interest.
  - kingofpandora 5y ago
    That's a common misconception. The definition adopted by the UN in the 1940s, states: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: * Killing members of the group; * Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; * Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; * Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; * Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
lp0_on_fire 5y ago
What exactly would you call what China is currently doing to the Uighurs if not genocide?
- ilaksh 5y ago
  I think people are misunderstanding what I am claiming. I am not saying that isn't the right word. The problem is that people are so enthusiastic about declaring it as genocide, without a single qualification, and no concern about the consequences in terms of using it as "justification" for a global war. It's horrible what they are doing. But the problem is people are just saying "yep, they are evil" and are going to consent to any and all types of mass killing against the Chinese on that basis. Similarly the Chinese will find things Americans have done, say they are all evil, and proceed with the mass killing attempts (war) with a clear conscience.
mikem170 5y ago
Yep, lots of countries mistreat lots of their people. I question why we are told more about some than others.

by ilaksh 5y ago

lostlogin 5y ago

> describing some of China's activities as genocide How would you describe what’s going on with the Uyghurs (or Tibet for that matter)?

pasabagi 5y ago
Genocide specifically refers to the organized extermination of a people. That's not what's happening in Xinjiang. Nobody claims that. They claim it's a 'cultural genocide', which is a very incendiary way of saying China is trying to stamp out Uyghur culture. That's also awful, but it's not genocide.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  > That's not what's happening in Xinjiang. Nobody claims that. There are claims of genocide, including ones made the The US Secretary of State and UK parliament. They are not outliers with these claims. There are reports of rape, gang rape, torture, forced sterilisation, forced abortion and forced contraception. People are missing and relatives can’t find them after the Chinese state took them. Prison cities for their race have been built and are being expanded. It isn’t ovens and gas, but it’s a lot more than ‘just’ an attack on their culture. Searching “Uyghur Genocide” returns no shortage of hits and disturbing stories of vicious abuse. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55723522 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55723522 https://theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/22/uk-mps-declare-china-is-committing-genocide-against-uyghurs-in-xinjiang https://theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/22/uk-mps-declare-chi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
  - pasabagi 5y ago
    During the first world war, the UK made a lot of claims about what Germany was doing in Belgium. It turned out that these claims were untrue. The Germans were undoubtedly brutal, but they were also not nearly so monstrous as the allies made them out to be. This lead to a lot of people treating early reports of the Holocaust with skepticism. I think the chinese state is also undoubtedly brutal, but nobody claims Australia is committing genocide when they demolish aboriginal holy sites, arrest aboriginal people, or take away their children. A pattern of brutality centered around reproductive rights, the destruction of cultural symbols, and mass incarceration is common to many oppressed minorities around the world. All this stuff is obviously terrible, and China should be condemned for its reversal of a traditionally great record on minority rights, but turning the Ughyurs into proxies for an essentially cynical US-China rivalry helps noone. PS: I also imagine those reports are likely all true. Police are typically brutal. Police in authoritarian regimes are worse. That doesn't make it genocide.
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      You imagine acknowledge the reports may be true, they meet the definition, but it isn’t genocide? Amnesty don’t call it genocide, but also note that all observers are blocked from entry. https://www.amnesty.org.nz/uyghurs-nowhere-feels-safe https://www.amnesty.org.nz/uyghurs-nowhere-feels-safe
      - pasabagi 5y ago
        Well, they don't meet the definition the other poster put up - unless you want to interpret it in a very loose sense that would certainly tar a lot of nations, for instance India. I'm not really attached to the word or it's definition. It just occurs to me that 'genocide' is the causus beli for every well-remembered war the west have had since WW2. When the word starts getting thrown around in the middle of a trade war, when US hegemony is being contested, when the world has a new number one in terms of economic and industrial might, well, I think its deployment is basically cynical. Insofar as it has already forced changes for (I think) the better in Chinese government policy, I'm glad. But I also think the airtime would be better spent less cynically, on countries like India, who are probably way easier to pressure and frankly just as bad. If world leaders like the UK go on air to call what's happening in Xinjiang genocide while selling arms to the Saudis so they can bomb the Houthis, then they just look about as cynical as they are. And that's what the Chinese domestic audience probably thinks, because ultimately, the west doesn't have moral credibility when it only makes a fuss over human rights when it's also in the west's strategic interest.
- kingofpandora 5y ago
  That's a common misconception. The definition adopted by the UN in the 1940s, states: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: * Killing members of the group; * Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; * Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; * Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; * Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

lp0_on_fire 5y ago

What exactly would you call what China is currently doing to the Uighurs if not genocide?

ilaksh 5y ago
I think people are misunderstanding what I am claiming. I am not saying that isn't the right word. The problem is that people are so enthusiastic about declaring it as genocide, without a single qualification, and no concern about the consequences in terms of using it as "justification" for a global war. It's horrible what they are doing. But the problem is people are just saying "yep, they are evil" and are going to consent to any and all types of mass killing against the Chinese on that basis. Similarly the Chinese will find things Americans have done, say they are all evil, and proceed with the mass killing attempts (war) with a clear conscience.

mikem170 5y ago

Yep, lots of countries mistreat lots of their people. I question why we are told more about some than others.