5 ms·

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -Benito Mussolini

kook_throwaway 5y ago
When everyone was arguing about communism and capitalism, fascism secretly co-opted both sides.
- viro 5y ago
  ah yes, cops warning companies about protesters that effectively siege buildings by blocking roads in and out so workers can't safely leave and disrupt critical infrastructure is fascism. (◔_◔)
  - scollet 5y ago
    > protesters that effectively siege buildings by blocking roads I would hope it's effective!
    - viro 5y ago
      lol, I might be mistaken ...are you pro protesters basically holding the workers of these companies captive against their will? because thats what this does...
  - pope_meat 5y ago
    ...what good is a protest that is easily ignored and doesn't affect the status quo?
    - viro 5y ago
      so kidnap their workers and illegaly hold them captive so they can't go home after work. wat!... no wonder we(dems) always lose elections .... insane takes like this.
      - kadoban 5y ago
        You haven't shown any evidence of _anyone_ having that goal or effect, and it's antithetical to how protests typically work. The protesters would be more than happy for the workers to leave and if anything be unable to come _back_.
        scollet 5y ago
        They're FUDding the discussion by attributing malice to the offended party. I'm confident they're self aware of their position, but trolling or otherwise, I don't think they intend to argue faithfully.
        viro 5y ago
        Minus the hundreds of video of protesters blocking people from leaving ... oh yeas those are all bad faith
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    Why do you keep harping on the idea of workers being trapped? There's no evidence of any workers being attacked, nor is there any indication protesters aimed to hold them hostage. A strike or blockade is designed to prevent the inflow of labor and resources, if workers left and didn't return the protesters would have been pleased. You keep arguing as if protesters were intent on preventing workers from returning to their families or suchlike.
    - viro 5y ago
      > A strike or blockade is designed to prevent the inflow of labor and resources, if workers left and didn't return the protesters would have been pleased That might be the intent on paper but It's basically impossible to only block a gate going one way. >There's no evidence of any workers being attacked Maybe in this exact case. But these type of responses is based on patterns of behavior of a political wing of the left that think political violence is ok.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        > That might be the intent on paper but It's basically impossible to only block a gate going one way. You sound like you've never participated in an organized protest before. My union did exactly that: our membership included parking enforcement, so we denied entry to the parking lot. Blocking egress is illegal, so we'd open to let people out. Of course, you can't really stop people who are willing to kill for their parking space. But the rest can be stopped with a throng of people blocking all ways but back.
Joker_vD 5y ago
Police: in exploiter states, a system of special bodies of supervision and coercion, as well as domestic punitive troops that protect the existing social system by means of direct and overt suppression. [...] As one of the chief instruments of the state, the police in an exploiter society is always separated from and inimical to the people. [...] In modern capitalist states the police are used primarily in the struggle against the revolutionary and working-class movement — against democratic progressive forces. - The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd Edition (1970-1979) Hmmm, I think I've read things about the US police — especially in the second part of 2020 — that were eerily close to this definition.
- sershe 5y ago
  Well, if the mouthpiece of the Soviet state tells me who the friend and the enemy is, it's pretty likely it's the other way around :D
mjburgess 5y ago
Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatis... "Corporate" means body, and isnt used in its modern sense. Fascism is, as you'll see, exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting. A fascist corporation is a collective owned by the state.
- a3n 5y ago
  Merged with or owned by, the results would seem to be too similar to distinguish.
  - viro 5y ago
    what do you think happens to workers at a building when protesters block the gate to leave?
    - a3n 5y ago
      They have to wait.
      - viro 5y ago
        so they get held captive? until when ? how long do I have to be illegally held captive because your morals disagree with my legal work?
        a3n 5y ago
        Democracy, and society in general, is messy. It certainly isn't binary. When legal protest doesn't work, it's sometimes necessary to resort to civil disobedience. That's messy and gray.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Why are you believing Fascist propaganda? Yes, Mussolini said that a Fascist corporation was a collective owned by the state with employees having most of the control. In reality that's not what he intended. In practice the state did not have economic control over the corporations. In the example of Nazi Germany, the cooperation of large industrialists was necessary for accession to power, and the state was too incompetent to achieve even basic control over the economy, so it was privatised and the leaders of corporations instead were integrated into the social Darwinist structure of society that the Nazis loved so much. Which turned out to work pretty well with unbounded free markets.
skrebbel 5y ago
I think this is a misquote because nobody used the word "corporation" to refer solely to big companies in those times. I didn't study Mussolini deeply but I assume he means it in the sense "collectives of small family businesses where the collective is owned, proportionally, by said families". I'm sure there's a better definition, but iirc "corporation" as a synonym for "enormous faceless public investor-controlled megacompany" is a pretty recent definition.

kook_throwaway 5y ago

When everyone was arguing about communism and capitalism, fascism secretly co-opted both sides.

viro 5y ago
ah yes, cops warning companies about protesters that effectively siege buildings by blocking roads in and out so workers can't safely leave and disrupt critical infrastructure is fascism. (◔_◔)
- scollet 5y ago
  > protesters that effectively siege buildings by blocking roads I would hope it's effective!
  - viro 5y ago
    lol, I might be mistaken ...are you pro protesters basically holding the workers of these companies captive against their will? because thats what this does...
- pope_meat 5y ago
  ...what good is a protest that is easily ignored and doesn't affect the status quo?
  - viro 5y ago
    so kidnap their workers and illegaly hold them captive so they can't go home after work. wat!... no wonder we(dems) always lose elections .... insane takes like this.
    - kadoban 5y ago
      You haven't shown any evidence of _anyone_ having that goal or effect, and it's antithetical to how protests typically work. The protesters would be more than happy for the workers to leave and if anything be unable to come _back_.
      - scollet 5y ago
        They're FUDding the discussion by attributing malice to the offended party. I'm confident they're self aware of their position, but trolling or otherwise, I don't think they intend to argue faithfully.
        viro 5y ago
        Minus the hundreds of video of protesters blocking people from leaving ... oh yeas those are all bad faith
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  Why do you keep harping on the idea of workers being trapped? There's no evidence of any workers being attacked, nor is there any indication protesters aimed to hold them hostage. A strike or blockade is designed to prevent the inflow of labor and resources, if workers left and didn't return the protesters would have been pleased. You keep arguing as if protesters were intent on preventing workers from returning to their families or suchlike.
  - viro 5y ago
    > A strike or blockade is designed to prevent the inflow of labor and resources, if workers left and didn't return the protesters would have been pleased That might be the intent on paper but It's basically impossible to only block a gate going one way. >There's no evidence of any workers being attacked Maybe in this exact case. But these type of responses is based on patterns of behavior of a political wing of the left that think political violence is ok.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      > That might be the intent on paper but It's basically impossible to only block a gate going one way. You sound like you've never participated in an organized protest before. My union did exactly that: our membership included parking enforcement, so we denied entry to the parking lot. Blocking egress is illegal, so we'd open to let people out. Of course, you can't really stop people who are willing to kill for their parking space. But the rest can be stopped with a throng of people blocking all ways but back.

Joker_vD 5y ago

Police: in exploiter states, a system of special bodies of supervision and coercion, as well as domestic punitive troops that protect the existing social system by means of direct and overt suppression. [...] As one of the chief instruments of the state, the police in an exploiter society is always separated from and inimical to the people. [...] In modern capitalist states the police are used primarily in the struggle against the revolutionary and working-class movement — against democratic progressive forces. - The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd Edition (1970-1979) Hmmm, I think I've read things about the US police — especially in the second part of 2020 — that were eerily close to this definition.

sershe 5y ago
Well, if the mouthpiece of the Soviet state tells me who the friend and the enemy is, it's pretty likely it's the other way around :D

mjburgess 5y ago

Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatis... "Corporate" means body, and isnt used in its modern sense. Fascism is, as you'll see, exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting. A fascist corporation is a collective owned by the state.

a3n 5y ago
Merged with or owned by, the results would seem to be too similar to distinguish.
- viro 5y ago
  what do you think happens to workers at a building when protesters block the gate to leave?
  - a3n 5y ago
    They have to wait.
    - viro 5y ago
      so they get held captive? until when ? how long do I have to be illegally held captive because your morals disagree with my legal work?
      - a3n 5y ago
        Democracy, and society in general, is messy. It certainly isn't binary. When legal protest doesn't work, it's sometimes necessary to resort to civil disobedience. That's messy and gray.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Why are you believing Fascist propaganda? Yes, Mussolini said that a Fascist corporation was a collective owned by the state with employees having most of the control. In reality that's not what he intended. In practice the state did not have economic control over the corporations. In the example of Nazi Germany, the cooperation of large industrialists was necessary for accession to power, and the state was too incompetent to achieve even basic control over the economy, so it was privatised and the leaders of corporations instead were integrated into the social Darwinist structure of society that the Nazis loved so much. Which turned out to work pretty well with unbounded free markets.

skrebbel 5y ago

I think this is a misquote because nobody used the word "corporation" to refer solely to big companies in those times. I didn't study Mussolini deeply but I assume he means it in the sense "collectives of small family businesses where the collective is owned, proportionally, by said families". I'm sure there's a better definition, but iirc "corporation" as a synonym for "enormous faceless public investor-controlled megacompany" is a pretty recent definition.