12 ms·

Visually impaired Paralympian hit by self-driving bus

32 points by phreeza 5y ago

perihelions 5y ago
Product page: https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/29933371.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/29933371.html "Low-speed automated driving with a focus on safety" - "The e-Palette is equipped with a specially-designed automated driving system that includes control hardware, software, and advanced sensors such as cameras and LiDAR. Combined with high-accuracy 3D mapping and an operation management system, e-Palette will realize low-speed automated driving at SAE level 4." - "To support safe operation, the e-Palette features an external human-machine interface designed to assist communication with those around the vehicle, including pedestrians, during automated driving. Both front and rear lamps on vehicle mimic eye contact to inform pedestrians of vehicle actions." - "The automated driving system constantly monitors for obstacles across a full 360-degree field of vision around the vehicle and operates at a speed appropriate and in accordance with the surrounding environment. As a preventative measure, an on-board safety operator will also monitor the vehicle's movement and be prepared to take control if necessary."
- spiderxxxx 5y ago
  So, no sound warnings to pedestrians is what I'm reading. Blind be damned.
moron4hire 5y ago
I guess "Bus-driver orders self-driving bus forward at stop, striking visually impaired Paralympian disguised as able-bodied person", just doesn't have the same ring. It's difficult to see how this could at all be Toyota's fault. The system stopped at the crosswalk correctly. The pedestrian was apparently not carrying any visually recognizable means to identify them as sight-impaired. There was even a crossing guard who also did not stop the pedestrian from aimlessly wandering into the intersection. Is the problem actually that the electric busses are too quiet and the pedestrian didn't realize it was there? I know some cities have had problems with this, but I thought installing beeper-devices on electric busses was pretty standard by now. Seems like the sort of mistake that a podunk town in bumble-fuck nowhere would make, not something that would happen in Tokyo. I'm assuming this person is used to walking around without a cane and has thus far managed without incident. Or maybe he's getting hit by cars all the time and this is the first we're hearing about it because it was an automated vehicle. Regardless, there are a dozen scenarios that are more likely than anything being done by anyone involved with the bus, driving it, supervising it, or manufacturing it.
- phreeza 5y ago
  Please not more beepers. Some low level white noise is much less intrusive and easier to localize.
  - jsight 5y ago
    Some vehicles use a white noise that sounds almost like the vehicle fans. I think this works pretty well without filling the area with useless beeps.
    - mrlonglong 5y ago
      My BMW beeps rather angrily if you dare to walk behind it whilst I am reversing. It's neat.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >It's difficult to see how this could at all be Toyota's fault You're not trying very hard. "Skittish AI stops for flagrantly false positives so frequently it trains the operators to override it at the drop of a hat" is a pretty common failure mode for automated systems.
Swenrekcah 5y ago
I’m all for criticism of reckless self driving implementations but it seems this can’t be blamed on software: “ Two bus operators -- on board to supervise the autonomous driving -- said they noticed the athlete, but thought he would stop walking as the bus was approaching, according to Japan's Asahi daily. The Mainichi daily said the bus automatically stopped but the operators pressed the start button as they did not think he would walk out on to the road.”
- xoa 5y ago
  >The Mainichi daily said the bus automatically stopped but the operators pressed the start button as they did not think he would walk out on to the road.” Yeah, if that's the case then this story is literally the 100% exact opposite of what the headline implies: it was the human drivers who were the weak link and caused an accident just is normally the case. Self-driving systems can be patient and just wait when in doubt, rather then feel any emotional temptation to make assumptions and get a move on.
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    There was a thread on this earlier this (last?) week with a video of a Waymo car hesitating as a person walked near a cross walk.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - capableweb 5y ago
    I mean, yes, headline might be misleading but it's not "100% exact opposite of what the headline implies". The headline ("Visually impaired Paralympian hit by self-driving bus") implies that someone was hit by something, that something was a self-driving bus. All of that is true, and is what happened. What's left out though, is whoose fault it was, it's not part of the headline at all. One might think it was because of the self-driving system instead of a human, but it wasn't. So yes, misleading/clickbait it was, but not "100% exact opposite".
sschueller 5y ago
Much worse for the visually impaired are not cars but people on electric scooters going fast on the sidewalk.
anoncow 5y ago
I think you should append “due to human error” to the title.
cbsks 5y ago
I wrote software for that bus! I’m glad it didn’t hit the pedestrian because of a bug in one of the rtos drivers. Instead it crashed due to a bug in the human drivers.
- hulitu 5y ago
  It is a bug in the safety case. Single point of failure. Is not even ASIL B ( error - pedestrian hit - but no diagnosis - no big warning "overrighting controls could result in human injury"). If I was the Safety expert for such a project i would have never given a green light for this.
- bell-cot 5y ago
  My reaction: Why did the bus not have a couple buttons in between 'Stop' and 'Go' - something like 'Creep Forward' and 'Go Cautious and Very Slow' - for crowded and uncertain situations? (I have no background whatever in self-driving vehicles, nor their software.) Might you be able to address that aspect?
darepublic 5y ago
People are saying it's purely human driver error.. perhaps. But the situation often occurs where you are driving past crosswalks with people on the side waiting. If one were to suddenly step out just before you passed you would hit them. That wouldn't be on the driver it would be on the pedestrian. Also, say an observant driver should have been able to tell that the Paralympian intended to walk. So it's human driver fault right? But maybe even then not entirely.. say the self driving system acts skittish way too often. Then it conditions the human drivers to be fed up with its automatic skittishness and just punch the proceed button routinely when it gets to intersections with pedestrians on the side. Just putting this out there because I see no one suggesting the pedestrian could be to blame or recognizing the subtleties of the shared responsibility of human and self driving system.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  Yep, and this is exacerbated in cities, and in areas where, for some reason, they make the bad choice of putting crosswalks near bus stops. Much of the time, people standing near crosswalks are just waiting for a bus, and usually successfully communicating that to drivers does not happen. And as we know, when there IS a bus using the stop, using the crosswalk is a lot more dangerous.
- wjnc 5y ago
  You live somewhere where people on the crosswalk don’t have right of way? That’s interesting. Where I live you have right of way on the crosswalk if you demonstrate intent to cross. There’s pretty much zero chance for the driver to not be liable in case of an accident.
  - hypertele-Xii 5y ago
    Same here. If a pedestrian is waiting at a crosswalk, vehicle traffic must stop by law.
  - jrootabega 5y ago
    There are places where pedestrians IN the crosswalk have the right of way, but not AT the crosswalk.
kangnkodos 5y ago
This is why self-driving vehicles will never be accepted in the west. OK, I'm including Japan in the west for this. - Self driving software correctly stops. - Human decision making overrides, and says go. - Pedestrian gets hit. - Self-driving vehicles are taken out of service. Does anyone else see the irony of this situation? The software was right, and the humans were wrong, so shelve the software, and have all humans drive buses for the rest of the paralympics. In the west, it's the story that counts. But in China, the math would be calculated differently. The self-driving buses would keep rolling, without human supervisors.

32 points by phreeza 5y ago

Product page: https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/29933371.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/29933371.html "Low-speed automated driving with a focus on safety" - "The e-Palette is equipped with a specially-designed automated driving system that includes control hardware, software, and advanced sensors such as cameras and LiDAR. Combined with high-accuracy 3D mapping and an operation management system, e-Palette will realize low-speed automated driving at SAE level 4." - "To support safe operation, the e-Palette features an external human-machine interface designed to assist communication with those around the vehicle, including pedestrians, during automated driving. Both front and rear lamps on vehicle mimic eye contact to inform pedestrians of vehicle actions." - "The automated driving system constantly monitors for obstacles across a full 360-degree field of vision around the vehicle and operates at a speed appropriate and in accordance with the surrounding environment. As a preventative measure, an on-board safety operator will also monitor the vehicle's movement and be prepared to take control if necessary."

spiderxxxx 5y ago
So, no sound warnings to pedestrians is what I'm reading. Blind be damned.

moron4hire 5y ago

I guess "Bus-driver orders self-driving bus forward at stop, striking visually impaired Paralympian disguised as able-bodied person", just doesn't have the same ring. It's difficult to see how this could at all be Toyota's fault. The system stopped at the crosswalk correctly. The pedestrian was apparently not carrying any visually recognizable means to identify them as sight-impaired. There was even a crossing guard who also did not stop the pedestrian from aimlessly wandering into the intersection. Is the problem actually that the electric busses are too quiet and the pedestrian didn't realize it was there? I know some cities have had problems with this, but I thought installing beeper-devices on electric busses was pretty standard by now. Seems like the sort of mistake that a podunk town in bumble-fuck nowhere would make, not something that would happen in Tokyo. I'm assuming this person is used to walking around without a cane and has thus far managed without incident. Or maybe he's getting hit by cars all the time and this is the first we're hearing about it because it was an automated vehicle. Regardless, there are a dozen scenarios that are more likely than anything being done by anyone involved with the bus, driving it, supervising it, or manufacturing it.

phreeza 5y ago
Please not more beepers. Some low level white noise is much less intrusive and easier to localize.
- jsight 5y ago
  Some vehicles use a white noise that sounds almost like the vehicle fans. I think this works pretty well without filling the area with useless beeps.
  - mrlonglong 5y ago
    My BMW beeps rather angrily if you dare to walk behind it whilst I am reversing. It's neat.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>It's difficult to see how this could at all be Toyota's fault You're not trying very hard. "Skittish AI stops for flagrantly false positives so frequently it trains the operators to override it at the drop of a hat" is a pretty common failure mode for automated systems.

Swenrekcah 5y ago

I’m all for criticism of reckless self driving implementations but it seems this can’t be blamed on software: “ Two bus operators -- on board to supervise the autonomous driving -- said they noticed the athlete, but thought he would stop walking as the bus was approaching, according to Japan's Asahi daily. The Mainichi daily said the bus automatically stopped but the operators pressed the start button as they did not think he would walk out on to the road.”

xoa 5y ago
>The Mainichi daily said the bus automatically stopped but the operators pressed the start button as they did not think he would walk out on to the road.” Yeah, if that's the case then this story is literally the 100% exact opposite of what the headline implies: it was the human drivers who were the weak link and caused an accident just is normally the case. Self-driving systems can be patient and just wait when in doubt, rather then feel any emotional temptation to make assumptions and get a move on.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  There was a thread on this earlier this (last?) week with a video of a Waymo car hesitating as a person walked near a cross walk.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- capableweb 5y ago
  I mean, yes, headline might be misleading but it's not "100% exact opposite of what the headline implies". The headline ("Visually impaired Paralympian hit by self-driving bus") implies that someone was hit by something, that something was a self-driving bus. All of that is true, and is what happened. What's left out though, is whoose fault it was, it's not part of the headline at all. One might think it was because of the self-driving system instead of a human, but it wasn't. So yes, misleading/clickbait it was, but not "100% exact opposite".

sschueller 5y ago

Much worse for the visually impaired are not cars but people on electric scooters going fast on the sidewalk.

anoncow 5y ago

I think you should append “due to human error” to the title.

cbsks 5y ago

I wrote software for that bus! I’m glad it didn’t hit the pedestrian because of a bug in one of the rtos drivers. Instead it crashed due to a bug in the human drivers.

hulitu 5y ago
It is a bug in the safety case. Single point of failure. Is not even ASIL B ( error - pedestrian hit - but no diagnosis - no big warning "overrighting controls could result in human injury"). If I was the Safety expert for such a project i would have never given a green light for this.
bell-cot 5y ago
My reaction: Why did the bus not have a couple buttons in between 'Stop' and 'Go' - something like 'Creep Forward' and 'Go Cautious and Very Slow' - for crowded and uncertain situations? (I have no background whatever in self-driving vehicles, nor their software.) Might you be able to address that aspect?

darepublic 5y ago

People are saying it's purely human driver error.. perhaps. But the situation often occurs where you are driving past crosswalks with people on the side waiting. If one were to suddenly step out just before you passed you would hit them. That wouldn't be on the driver it would be on the pedestrian. Also, say an observant driver should have been able to tell that the Paralympian intended to walk. So it's human driver fault right? But maybe even then not entirely.. say the self driving system acts skittish way too often. Then it conditions the human drivers to be fed up with its automatic skittishness and just punch the proceed button routinely when it gets to intersections with pedestrians on the side. Just putting this out there because I see no one suggesting the pedestrian could be to blame or recognizing the subtleties of the shared responsibility of human and self driving system.

jrootabega 5y ago
Yep, and this is exacerbated in cities, and in areas where, for some reason, they make the bad choice of putting crosswalks near bus stops. Much of the time, people standing near crosswalks are just waiting for a bus, and usually successfully communicating that to drivers does not happen. And as we know, when there IS a bus using the stop, using the crosswalk is a lot more dangerous.
wjnc 5y ago
You live somewhere where people on the crosswalk don’t have right of way? That’s interesting. Where I live you have right of way on the crosswalk if you demonstrate intent to cross. There’s pretty much zero chance for the driver to not be liable in case of an accident.
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  Same here. If a pedestrian is waiting at a crosswalk, vehicle traffic must stop by law.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  There are places where pedestrians IN the crosswalk have the right of way, but not AT the crosswalk.

kangnkodos 5y ago

This is why self-driving vehicles will never be accepted in the west. OK, I'm including Japan in the west for this. - Self driving software correctly stops. - Human decision making overrides, and says go. - Pedestrian gets hit. - Self-driving vehicles are taken out of service. Does anyone else see the irony of this situation? The software was right, and the humans were wrong, so shelve the software, and have all humans drive buses for the rest of the paralympics. In the west, it's the story that counts. But in China, the math would be calculated differently. The self-driving buses would keep rolling, without human supervisors.