6 ms·

The A72 is okay but is just not setting any records, even if you have 16 of them - what can you get with an X1 or (preferably) N1?

by mappu 5y ago

jhgb 5y ago
It seems to be setting price records with $750. Ugh. I mean, I get the reasons, but I'd probably rather build a cluster of 8GB RPi4's. For $750, it better be that X1/N1.
- accountofme 5y ago
  This also supports ecc memory...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - joezydeco 5y ago
    And doesn't need to boot off of SD cards.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      And doesn't keep important files on SD cards...
    - jhgb 5y ago
      Everything boots off of something. Even netboot needs firmware which is on some kind of flash memory anyway.
      - joezydeco 5y ago
        Some things are more reliable and fail safe than others. SD would not rank high on that list and that's not even talking about the cheap mechanical connector involved.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    So do Ryzens, for much less money per unit of performance.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  We discussed a couple options in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28299204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28299204 Unfortunately, having 4 4-core nodes will not make Slack or Chrome any faster. Unless you run each on a separate node and pipe the X output to your node.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    True, but I'm not quite sure why I'd be running either of those on this.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      It’s a workstation after all. You run workstationish stuff.
drewg123 5y ago
Well, you can get an M1 Mac Mini for about the same price. A 4-core VM running on my M1 MBP builds stuff nearly as fast as a bare-metal 64-core Ampere EMAG. So I'm guessing the M1 would run circles around 16 A72s..
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  An M1 Mac mini maxes out at 8 GB of RAM, no?
  - wmf 5y ago
    No, 16 GB.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      I think a 100 MHz Pentium with sufficient memory can run circles around a swapping M1 ;-)
qiqitori 5y ago
Not too familiar with ARM CPU names, but apparently this is a 16 nm chip from 2016. Hrm. The product itself doesn't appear to be particularly new either; their YouTube video is from March 31, 2020 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdRSCQfhyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdRSCQfhyw), and this blog article is dated February 24, 2021: https://www.solid-run.com/blog/articles/honeycomb-lx2-server/ https://www.solid-run.com/blog/articles/honeycomb-lx2-server... and this "early access sale" (https://www.solid-run.com/news/early-access-limited-offer-honeycomb-lx2k-workstation/ https://www.solid-run.com/news/early-access-limited-offer-ho...) is from June 7, 2019. (You have to go to pages like https://www.solid-run.com/blog/page/3/ https://www.solid-run.com/blog/page/3/ to find the dates.) I don't think ARM chips will take off on "real computers" until you can buy CPUs and motherboards independently. And if that is difficult for technical reasons (e.g., no standardized BIOS/hardware discoverability -- I'm just extrapolating from ARM-based dev boards I have used, maybe this exists on computers like this) then I think it's going to take a long time -- perhaps RISC-V-based "real computers" will appear before that.
- wmf 5y ago
  ...until you can buy CPUs and motherboards independently Ampere Altra is socketed; too bad the motherboard alone is ~$5,000. standardized BIOS/hardware discoverability This is solved with SBSA/ServerReady/SystemReady.
  - p_l 5y ago
    Honeycomb in fact advertises (for a good reason) that they do have sensible platform firmware in place.
- linux4kix 5y ago
  socketed Arm SOCs are very unlikely because there are so many vendors making them. This works on the x86_64 side because you basically have Intel and AMD and they each have their own manufacturing ecosystem and target sockets. That is why we chose CEX7 since it is a standard that allows the motherboard to be customized to the use case.
CameronNemo 5y ago
I too turned this offering down after considering that I don't want to lug around 16 A72's. It is certainly an interesting board, and if you are a hobbyist in need of an ARM server I see no better options, but I think we will see much more interesting boards in the future.
- linux4kix 5y ago
  You may be interested in our new platforms coming out based on our newly announced LX2162A, https://www.solid-run.com/embedded-networking/nxp-lx2160a-family/lx2162a-som/ https://www.solid-run.com/embedded-networking/nxp-lx2160a-fa...
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    Looks like it is still A72s. Any chance to upgrade the core design, or switch to a newer process node? I am comparing against Ryzen Zen 3 chips FWIW.
    - linux4kix 5y ago
      We don't make the SOCs, just implement them. The only other available SOC that is N1 is the Ampere Altra and you will not be able to provide a < $1000 system with that. Also the SOC itself is almost as large as the entire CEX7 module. This system was never meant to out perform the latest CPUs on the market. It is a developer tool to fill a niche and help advance the SystemReady ecosystem. We liked the fit because after faster more desktop ready SOCs are available this doesn't become ewaste, but can easily re-purpose into a micro-server or other network development platform.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > I am comparing against Ryzen Zen 3 chips FWIW. I find their ISA offensive ;-)
    - scns 5y ago
      Does your comparison include sales volume and power draw?
linux4kix 5y ago
No it is not setting records, but we felt that it was capable enough to help crack the existing chicken and egg problem. We could provide a SystemReady Arm platform that could help bridge the divide and provide developers a native Aarch64 platform that wasn't $3000+ HoneyComb has helped bring better Aarch64 support to many OSS projects getting things ready for better SOCs once they become available.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  One of the positives of having lots of non-speed-record-setting cores instead of few single-threading-monsters is that it helps people learn to write parallel programs. I wish we could give all software engineers CPUs with 64 Atom (or ARM53) cores and force them to write software that performs well that way. I am myself guilty of that - many of my build scripts didn't bother to run on more than one core until I got a burner laptop that has horrendous single-thread performance (but 4 threads). Now the big laptop runs them virtually instantaneously.
aseipp 5y ago
That's a fair point but the reality is this -- if you work on large-ish or actually large codebase (think like, Open Office sized codebases, not your random run of the mill npm package) today and you want to maintain it, publish packages, do work, integrate a CI builder, etc -- it doesn't really matter. You need RAM, cores, and importantly, a fast drive. Basically the only things that can fit this bill at sub-$1000 USD, are: - Virtualized Linux on an M1 Mac. (Limited RAM since the M1 caps at 16GB, but viable.) - Jetson Xavier AGX. (Good for ML and overall strong SoC, but the proprietary bits get in the way e.g. if you want a new kernel version.) - This thing. (OK cores, but 64GB RAM and M.2) Hilariously, the newest entry in this list is actually the M1 Mac (both the AGX and Honeycomb date to 2019/2020.) Unless you're going to start subsidizing boards, somehow. You're not going to see Neoverse in a developer workstation at a similar price point until the market either flourishes substantially (months, years from now) and the volume allows lower pricing, or a sugar daddy company somewhere decides to just set money on fire and directly subsidize sales directly to you. Part of this is the same problem where you have to buy both the CPU and the motherboard together, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. For comparison, an Ampere Altra with the entry-level 32-core will cost you about $6,500 USD. https://store.avantek.co.uk/ampere-altra-64bit-arm-workstation.html https://store.avantek.co.uk/ampere-altra-64bit-arm-workstati...
- my123 5y ago
  In the first half of next year, Jetson AGX Xavier will be superseded by Jetson AGX Orin at the same price point, which has 12x Cortex-A78AE. Will be quite a nice bump. At the same time, the SW stack will switch to UEFI for the bootloader, including support for the latest kernels. (but, Jetson Nano/TX1/TX2/TX2 NX will no longer be supported by the new stack)
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    The extra cores are welcome, but, for a workstation, the eMMC is limiting. And I have emotional scars from Nvidia GPUs in desktop Linux computers, so I'll pass this one.
    - 5y ago

The A72 is okay but is just not setting any records, even if you have 16 of them - what can you get with an X1 or (preferably) N1?

by mappu 5y ago

The A72 is okay but is just not setting any records, even if you have 16 of them - what can you get with an X1 or (preferably) N1?

jhgb 5y ago

It seems to be setting price records with $750. Ugh. I mean, I get the reasons, but I'd probably rather build a cluster of 8GB RPi4's. For $750, it better be that X1/N1.

accountofme 5y ago
This also supports ecc memory...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- joezydeco 5y ago
  And doesn't need to boot off of SD cards.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    And doesn't keep important files on SD cards...
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Everything boots off of something. Even netboot needs firmware which is on some kind of flash memory anyway.
    - joezydeco 5y ago
      Some things are more reliable and fail safe than others. SD would not rank high on that list and that's not even talking about the cheap mechanical connector involved.
- jhgb 5y ago
  So do Ryzens, for much less money per unit of performance.
rbanffy 5y ago
We discussed a couple options in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28299204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28299204 Unfortunately, having 4 4-core nodes will not make Slack or Chrome any faster. Unless you run each on a separate node and pipe the X output to your node.
- jhgb 5y ago
  True, but I'm not quite sure why I'd be running either of those on this.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    It’s a workstation after all. You run workstationish stuff.

drewg123 5y ago

Well, you can get an M1 Mac Mini for about the same price. A 4-core VM running on my M1 MBP builds stuff nearly as fast as a bare-metal 64-core Ampere EMAG. So I'm guessing the M1 would run circles around 16 A72s..

CameronNemo 5y ago
An M1 Mac mini maxes out at 8 GB of RAM, no?
- wmf 5y ago
  No, 16 GB.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    I think a 100 MHz Pentium with sufficient memory can run circles around a swapping M1 ;-)

qiqitori 5y ago

Not too familiar with ARM CPU names, but apparently this is a 16 nm chip from 2016. Hrm. The product itself doesn't appear to be particularly new either; their YouTube video is from March 31, 2020 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdRSCQfhyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdRSCQfhyw), and this blog article is dated February 24, 2021: https://www.solid-run.com/blog/articles/honeycomb-lx2-server/ https://www.solid-run.com/blog/articles/honeycomb-lx2-server... and this "early access sale" (https://www.solid-run.com/news/early-access-limited-offer-honeycomb-lx2k-workstation/ https://www.solid-run.com/news/early-access-limited-offer-ho...) is from June 7, 2019. (You have to go to pages like https://www.solid-run.com/blog/page/3/ https://www.solid-run.com/blog/page/3/ to find the dates.) I don't think ARM chips will take off on "real computers" until you can buy CPUs and motherboards independently. And if that is difficult for technical reasons (e.g., no standardized BIOS/hardware discoverability -- I'm just extrapolating from ARM-based dev boards I have used, maybe this exists on computers like this) then I think it's going to take a long time -- perhaps RISC-V-based "real computers" will appear before that.

wmf 5y ago
...until you can buy CPUs and motherboards independently Ampere Altra is socketed; too bad the motherboard alone is ~$5,000. standardized BIOS/hardware discoverability This is solved with SBSA/ServerReady/SystemReady.
- p_l 5y ago
  Honeycomb in fact advertises (for a good reason) that they do have sensible platform firmware in place.
linux4kix 5y ago
socketed Arm SOCs are very unlikely because there are so many vendors making them. This works on the x86_64 side because you basically have Intel and AMD and they each have their own manufacturing ecosystem and target sockets. That is why we chose CEX7 since it is a standard that allows the motherboard to be customized to the use case.

CameronNemo 5y ago

I too turned this offering down after considering that I don't want to lug around 16 A72's. It is certainly an interesting board, and if you are a hobbyist in need of an ARM server I see no better options, but I think we will see much more interesting boards in the future.

linux4kix 5y ago
You may be interested in our new platforms coming out based on our newly announced LX2162A, https://www.solid-run.com/embedded-networking/nxp-lx2160a-family/lx2162a-som/ https://www.solid-run.com/embedded-networking/nxp-lx2160a-fa...
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  Looks like it is still A72s. Any chance to upgrade the core design, or switch to a newer process node? I am comparing against Ryzen Zen 3 chips FWIW.
  - linux4kix 5y ago
    We don't make the SOCs, just implement them. The only other available SOC that is N1 is the Ampere Altra and you will not be able to provide a < $1000 system with that. Also the SOC itself is almost as large as the entire CEX7 module. This system was never meant to out perform the latest CPUs on the market. It is a developer tool to fill a niche and help advance the SystemReady ecosystem. We liked the fit because after faster more desktop ready SOCs are available this doesn't become ewaste, but can easily re-purpose into a micro-server or other network development platform.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > I am comparing against Ryzen Zen 3 chips FWIW. I find their ISA offensive ;-)
  - scns 5y ago
    Does your comparison include sales volume and power draw?

linux4kix 5y ago

No it is not setting records, but we felt that it was capable enough to help crack the existing chicken and egg problem. We could provide a SystemReady Arm platform that could help bridge the divide and provide developers a native Aarch64 platform that wasn't $3000+ HoneyComb has helped bring better Aarch64 support to many OSS projects getting things ready for better SOCs once they become available.

rbanffy 5y ago
One of the positives of having lots of non-speed-record-setting cores instead of few single-threading-monsters is that it helps people learn to write parallel programs. I wish we could give all software engineers CPUs with 64 Atom (or ARM53) cores and force them to write software that performs well that way. I am myself guilty of that - many of my build scripts didn't bother to run on more than one core until I got a burner laptop that has horrendous single-thread performance (but 4 threads). Now the big laptop runs them virtually instantaneously.

aseipp 5y ago

That's a fair point but the reality is this -- if you work on large-ish or actually large codebase (think like, Open Office sized codebases, not your random run of the mill npm package) today and you want to maintain it, publish packages, do work, integrate a CI builder, etc -- it doesn't really matter. You need RAM, cores, and importantly, a fast drive. Basically the only things that can fit this bill at sub-$1000 USD, are: - Virtualized Linux on an M1 Mac. (Limited RAM since the M1 caps at 16GB, but viable.) - Jetson Xavier AGX. (Good for ML and overall strong SoC, but the proprietary bits get in the way e.g. if you want a new kernel version.) - This thing. (OK cores, but 64GB RAM and M.2) Hilariously, the newest entry in this list is actually the M1 Mac (both the AGX and Honeycomb date to 2019/2020.) Unless you're going to start subsidizing boards, somehow. You're not going to see Neoverse in a developer workstation at a similar price point until the market either flourishes substantially (months, years from now) and the volume allows lower pricing, or a sugar daddy company somewhere decides to just set money on fire and directly subsidize sales directly to you. Part of this is the same problem where you have to buy both the CPU and the motherboard together, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. For comparison, an Ampere Altra with the entry-level 32-core will cost you about $6,500 USD. https://store.avantek.co.uk/ampere-altra-64bit-arm-workstation.html https://store.avantek.co.uk/ampere-altra-64bit-arm-workstati...

my123 5y ago
In the first half of next year, Jetson AGX Xavier will be superseded by Jetson AGX Orin at the same price point, which has 12x Cortex-A78AE. Will be quite a nice bump. At the same time, the SW stack will switch to UEFI for the bootloader, including support for the latest kernels. (but, Jetson Nano/TX1/TX2/TX2 NX will no longer be supported by the new stack)
- rbanffy 5y ago
  The extra cores are welcome, but, for a workstation, the eMMC is limiting. And I have emotional scars from Nvidia GPUs in desktop Linux computers, so I'll pass this one.
  - 5y ago