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The whole point of the submission is that even when high IQ is required, you also need to "work hard" to do anything substantial. The common thread is "work ha

The whole point of the submission is that even when high IQ is required, you also need to "work hard" to do anything substantial. The common thread is "work hard", not "be smart", but people obsess over intelligence/natural gifts, and consistently underestimate the "ditch diggers". Jobs was a ditch digger. Gates was a ditch digger. Musk is a ditch digger. PG is a ditch digger. Tao is a ditch digger. Jordan was a ditch digger. Woods was a ditch digger. Carlsen is a ditch digger. Some (all) of them also are naturally gifted, but their success is due to their ability to "work hard", or at least that's what I've read them say over and over again. Maybe I and they are all wrong about it, I'm open to that possibility, but theres a consistent theme that every successful person I can think of repeats when asked, and it's some variation on "work hard".

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
You do need both, and therein lies the problem. If you don't have the IQ, your hard work is meaningless.
- PartiallyTyped 5y ago
  That’s absurd. Discoveries are rarely made by lone scientists, progress is made by tens or hundreds of people, each exploiting their comparable advantage, even if that is digging ditches.
  - fuzzfactor 5y ago
    >Discoveries are rarely made by lone scientists Any more. Because they are not in the mainstream. To overcome this you better not be intimidated by however hard the work is.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Yes, you need both to be the best in the world in a given field, but why is that a problem?
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    That is not a problem. The problem I see is touting the value of hard work to people who may not have the requisite IQ to go along with it for their desired outcome (Best in the world in their field, for example). You said, Additionally, I think the obsession over "intelligence" and "natural ability" is vastly overstated, in general". I think it's actually understated in general. Telling people who don't have the mental horse power to, "work harder", is cruel. Would you tell someone with an IQ of 100 to "work harder" if they wanted to be a Software Engineer/Lawyer/etc?
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      While I agree there is a certain threshold of skills below which one can't really function as a lawyer/software dev, after passing that threshold your IQ matters less. There is the top 1% or even 0.01% of performers out there and then there is the rest of us. The difference between a software dev with an IQ of 115 or 125 doesn't sound that big to me. A lot in their careers will depend on their people skills and work ethics more so than on their IQ. This is especially true for jobs like lawyers or even doctors, but if we go back to software development - a lot of it is quite repititive and actually favors well people with strong work ethic. Unless you work on cutting edge algorithmic computer science stuff (which isn't really software development), we all keep building classes and models and glueing libraries together; or we gain some deep knowledge in some mobile platform or even some embedded programming. Even stuff that sounds super complex to a web developer like Kernel development probably gets repititive after awhile.
      - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
        Yes, I agree. If we're talking about a normal career then having 115 vs 125 IQ probably won't make much of a difference compared to being diligent. However, I think that if you want to be a very high performer IQ might be a hindrance. For someone like Musk or Jobs I think it definitely is.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      There is no requisite IQ, and I absolutely would tell someone with a definitionally average 100 IQ to "work hard" to become a software engineer/lawyer, as they could be in the absolute top of their field if they did.
- fuzzfactor 5y ago
  I see no reason to downvote, I agree, >You do need both This has been proven to me over and over. >therein lies the problem. But I see no problem. >If you don't have the IQ, your hard work is meaningless. I don't think meaningless if it's well guided, it can still get each person further if they do go there.
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    > I don't think meaningless if it's well guided, it can still get each person further if they do go there Sure, I don't think hard work is a bad thing as long as people temper their expectations. The issue I have is that hard work often seems to be touted as a magic pill for success.

ZephyrBlu 5y ago

You do need both, and therein lies the problem. If you don't have the IQ, your hard work is meaningless.

PartiallyTyped 5y ago
That’s absurd. Discoveries are rarely made by lone scientists, progress is made by tens or hundreds of people, each exploiting their comparable advantage, even if that is digging ditches.
- fuzzfactor 5y ago
  >Discoveries are rarely made by lone scientists Any more. Because they are not in the mainstream. To overcome this you better not be intimidated by however hard the work is.
TameAntelope 5y ago
Yes, you need both to be the best in the world in a given field, but why is that a problem?
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  That is not a problem. The problem I see is touting the value of hard work to people who may not have the requisite IQ to go along with it for their desired outcome (Best in the world in their field, for example). You said, Additionally, I think the obsession over "intelligence" and "natural ability" is vastly overstated, in general". I think it's actually understated in general. Telling people who don't have the mental horse power to, "work harder", is cruel. Would you tell someone with an IQ of 100 to "work harder" if they wanted to be a Software Engineer/Lawyer/etc?
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    While I agree there is a certain threshold of skills below which one can't really function as a lawyer/software dev, after passing that threshold your IQ matters less. There is the top 1% or even 0.01% of performers out there and then there is the rest of us. The difference between a software dev with an IQ of 115 or 125 doesn't sound that big to me. A lot in their careers will depend on their people skills and work ethics more so than on their IQ. This is especially true for jobs like lawyers or even doctors, but if we go back to software development - a lot of it is quite repititive and actually favors well people with strong work ethic. Unless you work on cutting edge algorithmic computer science stuff (which isn't really software development), we all keep building classes and models and glueing libraries together; or we gain some deep knowledge in some mobile platform or even some embedded programming. Even stuff that sounds super complex to a web developer like Kernel development probably gets repititive after awhile.
    - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
      Yes, I agree. If we're talking about a normal career then having 115 vs 125 IQ probably won't make much of a difference compared to being diligent. However, I think that if you want to be a very high performer IQ might be a hindrance. For someone like Musk or Jobs I think it definitely is.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    There is no requisite IQ, and I absolutely would tell someone with a definitionally average 100 IQ to "work hard" to become a software engineer/lawyer, as they could be in the absolute top of their field if they did.
fuzzfactor 5y ago
I see no reason to downvote, I agree, >You do need both This has been proven to me over and over. >therein lies the problem. But I see no problem. >If you don't have the IQ, your hard work is meaningless. I don't think meaningless if it's well guided, it can still get each person further if they do go there.
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  > I don't think meaningless if it's well guided, it can still get each person further if they do go there Sure, I don't think hard work is a bad thing as long as people temper their expectations. The issue I have is that hard work often seems to be touted as a magic pill for success.