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I've been using Linux desktop exclusively for about 5 years and I agree with everything you said. > Open source yadda yadda. This is it right here. I think th

I've been using Linux desktop exclusively for about 5 years and I agree with everything you said. > Open source yadda yadda. This is it right here. I think this is the main differentiator. At the end of the day whether a person is happy on Linux depends on how much they care about software freedom. I'm willing to put up with the Linux jank because free software is really important to me and aligns with my values.

kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
I feel like some Linux users (like me) stop noticing the jank over time since we slowly become very adept at coping with it (eg. finding good resources on how to solve the problem so we can find the fix pretty quickly, or just knowing the fix out of experience. In the end, it gets not so bad. But GUI front ends for package managers, like [especially] GNOME Software are horrendous from my experience. Which is not so great of a look; of all the things that should be user-friendly it should be package management (IMHO). Package manager failures (conflicts, whatever) are handled horribly by GUI front-ends and even then usually require some expertise to fix, which is a pain. At least Fedora Silverblue nails the updates so that stuff usually doesn't break... but of all the things that were broken OOTB for me on my install... it was (duh!) GNOME Software.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  This is doubly awful because when I show a non-tech user around linux, the thing they're always most impressed by and which is most distinct about the linux experience compared to Win/Mac is the ability to pull arbitrary software from distro repos. But the GUIs are awful. The cli experience is awful, too, but better and we get used to it. They're never going to get used to it, and why would they want to? I don't know the answer; package management is a complicated problem. But maybe some sort of distributed app-store experience where the package manager also manages marketing for and forums about the apps. See, I really don't know - but having to go to a webpage and read a bunch of marketing material then download, or go to an app store and get descriptions, screenshots, and commentary by other users is somehow a subjectively better experience for non-tech types than "apt-cache search" or its GUI equivalents.
  - elcritch 5y ago
    I've been using manjaro and really like it's package manager. The cli stuff is a pain at first, but worth being able to trivially install two parallel python versions. YaST is my second favorite. The manjaro gui tool also to you do snap/ flatpak. Those two are about as close as you'll get to a district independent package manager.
    - scns 5y ago
      +1 for Yast. Dont expect a pretty UI, function over form here, but is pretty nice to only enter your password once and be able to administer packages, docker, VMs and their tooling, btrfs, network services and so much more.
  - hack-news 5y ago
    Use NixOS... it's so strong already that I'm ecstatic to see where it will be in 5 years or so. I have 15+ years experience with Linux and many DEs, and while there's some value to some of the criticisms thrown around here, I strongly disagree with the premise that MacOS and Windows are superior. I can instantly switch between various environments i.e. i3 with some xcfe4 packages, GNOME 3, and MATE. I can roll back to old versions of my system effortlessly and I never worry about breaking on updates, which are as easy as adding some further declarative configuration. I can pull in a few files from version control and have a new identical system running on another machine in about 15 minutes. Installing practically any development tooling, or even a new filesystem, is a ~2 minute endeavor for me. So are you all really so sure that your systems are superior to mine?
- herbst 5y ago
  My mum, sister and other poor souls I refuse support to if they don't run Linux are all used to apt, which in 99% of all cases has the solution command as part of the error message.
- RealStickman_ 5y ago
  > I feel like some Linux users (like me) stop noticing the jank over time since we slowly become very adept at coping with it (eg. finding good resources on how to solve the problem so we can find the fix pretty quickly, or just knowing the fix out of experience. I think that holds true for anything honestly. I never cared much about how annoying it is to install EXEs on windows, visiting each website, clicking through another dialog etc. Neither did I care about the GUI. Now that I'm using Linux on my personal devices however, I got to like package managers and tiling WMs.
deckard1 5y ago
I care about freedom more than most people using Linux these days. But from a historical perspective, desktop Linux was only made possible by Nvidia and their closed driver. That's a sad fact. I've been on Linux "desktop" since 1995 or so. There are only two businesses that really gave much of a crap about Linux (other than Red Hat) and those were: id Software and Nvidia. ATI had total garbage for drivers for many many years. Practically up until AMD bought them. I built a HTPC back in 2005 around a passively-cooled ATI card trying to get it silent as possible. The idea was that I would use the Radeon driver on Linux and everything would just work. But it didn't. And I was stuck using Windows. ATI shares part of the blame for why Linux never made it on the desktop. You can't have one of the two major video card vendors dropping the ball for so long and come out okay.
- freedomben 5y ago
  I agree with you, and I hate it, because Nvidia causes me so many headaches. I've been a full time linux user for a little over 10 years now. I refuse to buy a system with an nvidia card now, because that damn proprietary driver and nvidia's slow moving way of not supporting newest kernels or wayland, makes life hell. I could have avoided some of that pain by sticking with a slow moving or older distro like CentOS, but that brings many other problems. I'm grateful for Nvidia for doing what they do, but I'm pretty stoked for my new AMD card that will get my system back to where I don't have major crashes one to two times per day.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- josteink 5y ago
  > But from a historical perspective, desktop Linux was only made possible by Nvidia and their closed driver. Intel Integrated graphics has been around for a long time now, it has open drivers and since its first release, it has been more than adequate for most non-gamers. Maybe that's just me, but I don't really care that much about NVidia or ATI/AMD, and the state of their drives don't impact my ability to meaningfully use Linux on the desktop.
tellersid 5y ago
I can't agree with that from a personal level. I have used KDE Plasma for a few years now and I really don't care much at all about software freedom. It is ultimately just way better than Windows. Windows 10 is just an embarrassment.

kaladin-jasnah 5y ago

I feel like some Linux users (like me) stop noticing the jank over time since we slowly become very adept at coping with it (eg. finding good resources on how to solve the problem so we can find the fix pretty quickly, or just knowing the fix out of experience. In the end, it gets not so bad. But GUI front ends for package managers, like [especially] GNOME Software are horrendous from my experience. Which is not so great of a look; of all the things that should be user-friendly it should be package management (IMHO). Package manager failures (conflicts, whatever) are handled horribly by GUI front-ends and even then usually require some expertise to fix, which is a pain. At least Fedora Silverblue nails the updates so that stuff usually doesn't break... but of all the things that were broken OOTB for me on my install... it was (duh!) GNOME Software.

pessimizer 5y ago
This is doubly awful because when I show a non-tech user around linux, the thing they're always most impressed by and which is most distinct about the linux experience compared to Win/Mac is the ability to pull arbitrary software from distro repos. But the GUIs are awful. The cli experience is awful, too, but better and we get used to it. They're never going to get used to it, and why would they want to? I don't know the answer; package management is a complicated problem. But maybe some sort of distributed app-store experience where the package manager also manages marketing for and forums about the apps. See, I really don't know - but having to go to a webpage and read a bunch of marketing material then download, or go to an app store and get descriptions, screenshots, and commentary by other users is somehow a subjectively better experience for non-tech types than "apt-cache search" or its GUI equivalents.
- elcritch 5y ago
  I've been using manjaro and really like it's package manager. The cli stuff is a pain at first, but worth being able to trivially install two parallel python versions. YaST is my second favorite. The manjaro gui tool also to you do snap/ flatpak. Those two are about as close as you'll get to a district independent package manager.
  - scns 5y ago
    +1 for Yast. Dont expect a pretty UI, function over form here, but is pretty nice to only enter your password once and be able to administer packages, docker, VMs and their tooling, btrfs, network services and so much more.
- hack-news 5y ago
  Use NixOS... it's so strong already that I'm ecstatic to see where it will be in 5 years or so. I have 15+ years experience with Linux and many DEs, and while there's some value to some of the criticisms thrown around here, I strongly disagree with the premise that MacOS and Windows are superior. I can instantly switch between various environments i.e. i3 with some xcfe4 packages, GNOME 3, and MATE. I can roll back to old versions of my system effortlessly and I never worry about breaking on updates, which are as easy as adding some further declarative configuration. I can pull in a few files from version control and have a new identical system running on another machine in about 15 minutes. Installing practically any development tooling, or even a new filesystem, is a ~2 minute endeavor for me. So are you all really so sure that your systems are superior to mine?
herbst 5y ago
My mum, sister and other poor souls I refuse support to if they don't run Linux are all used to apt, which in 99% of all cases has the solution command as part of the error message.
RealStickman_ 5y ago
> I feel like some Linux users (like me) stop noticing the jank over time since we slowly become very adept at coping with it (eg. finding good resources on how to solve the problem so we can find the fix pretty quickly, or just knowing the fix out of experience. I think that holds true for anything honestly. I never cared much about how annoying it is to install EXEs on windows, visiting each website, clicking through another dialog etc. Neither did I care about the GUI. Now that I'm using Linux on my personal devices however, I got to like package managers and tiling WMs.

deckard1 5y ago

I care about freedom more than most people using Linux these days. But from a historical perspective, desktop Linux was only made possible by Nvidia and their closed driver. That's a sad fact. I've been on Linux "desktop" since 1995 or so. There are only two businesses that really gave much of a crap about Linux (other than Red Hat) and those were: id Software and Nvidia. ATI had total garbage for drivers for many many years. Practically up until AMD bought them. I built a HTPC back in 2005 around a passively-cooled ATI card trying to get it silent as possible. The idea was that I would use the Radeon driver on Linux and everything would just work. But it didn't. And I was stuck using Windows. ATI shares part of the blame for why Linux never made it on the desktop. You can't have one of the two major video card vendors dropping the ball for so long and come out okay.

freedomben 5y ago
I agree with you, and I hate it, because Nvidia causes me so many headaches. I've been a full time linux user for a little over 10 years now. I refuse to buy a system with an nvidia card now, because that damn proprietary driver and nvidia's slow moving way of not supporting newest kernels or wayland, makes life hell. I could have avoided some of that pain by sticking with a slow moving or older distro like CentOS, but that brings many other problems. I'm grateful for Nvidia for doing what they do, but I'm pretty stoked for my new AMD card that will get my system back to where I don't have major crashes one to two times per day.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
josteink 5y ago
> But from a historical perspective, desktop Linux was only made possible by Nvidia and their closed driver. Intel Integrated graphics has been around for a long time now, it has open drivers and since its first release, it has been more than adequate for most non-gamers. Maybe that's just me, but I don't really care that much about NVidia or ATI/AMD, and the state of their drives don't impact my ability to meaningfully use Linux on the desktop.

tellersid 5y ago

I can't agree with that from a personal level. I have used KDE Plasma for a few years now and I really don't care much at all about software freedom. It is ultimately just way better than Windows. Windows 10 is just an embarrassment.