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I've held for a long time that you must know the rules quite well before you're "allowed" to break them, and I think this reinforces my opinion on that. Additi

I've held for a long time that you must know the rules quite well before you're "allowed" to break them, and I think this reinforces my opinion on that. Additionally, I think the obsession over "intelligence" and "natural ability" is vastly overstated, in general. It absolutely helps, and it compounds, to be smart, but a person who "works hard" is infinitely more valuable to their colleagues than a smart person who doesn't, and tries to rely on raw intellect. My problem, and I wonder if others have this issue as well, is how hard it is to know these things intellectually, and also apply them to my life. I just cannot, for the life of me, maintain a "work hard" mindset. I'm still trying, but I very often fail at this, and its frustrating because I know how valuable it is to being good at what I do.

markus_zhang 5y ago
It really depends on what you define as natural abilities. The ability to work hard for 12 hours without break every day IMHO is as "natural" as having a good IQ.
- zqna 5y ago
  One attribute of having "high IQ" is being able to understand the vanity of working "hard".
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    There is a line between IQ and wisdom, and wisdom is learned through experience and time.
    - beckingz 5y ago
      I prefer reading.
albatross13 5y ago
It's kind of a double edged sword- I've worked with a few people that "work hard" and "get things done", only to find out once they leave (or go on vacation) that now we have to untangle a 600 line bash script that's integral to production. I'm being a bit hyperbolic here, but the gist of my point is: not everyone who works hard is worth keeping around, especially if their hard work leads to an un-managable mess in the future.
- dimitrios1 5y ago
  I used to think like this too, but now-a-days, it's more like "What a luxury to be in a position where you get paid to untangle a 600 line bash script" That is, usually these few hard workers are typically the ones responsible for getting a company to profitability precisely because of their GSD attitude. Now that the company has some runway, the architecture and refactoring can proceed.
  - albatross13 5y ago
    I can assure you, when shit is broken in production and customers are knocking at the door threatening to cancel it is not a luxury to find out these types of things...let alone start untangling the web.
    - reidjs 5y ago
      He means that those customers wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for the messy code.
      - srean 5y ago
        When things eventually break, its possible that those customers and more would leave also because of that same code.
        philosopher1234 5y ago
        Anything is possible. Better to focus on what is likely. Did you stop using google over any of their outages? Most people didn't. These things matter, but people in software overstate them.
        srean 5y ago
        Depends on what's on the line. Software for automatic trading, dosing radiotherapy, controller for moonshot etc will have different requirements on correctness than ordering of search results. Ignoring these things can have people killed/ruined and they have.
paulpauper 5y ago
Additionally, I think the obsession over "intelligence" and "natural ability" is vastly overstated, in general. It absolutely helps, and it compounds, to be smart, but a person who "works hard" is infinitely more valuable to their colleagues than a smart person who doesn't, and tries to rely on raw intellect. That may be true for something like digging a ditch, but IQ is needed to make those necessary logical leaps for more abstract matters. Only hard work is like adding 1+2+3....n. Having a high IQ is knowing the shortcut to sum it instantly.
- 542458 5y ago
  So, so little of most people’s work is deep abstract thought like that. I used to have this research assistant - she was from an entirely unrelated arts major, and was a bit… well, let’s say not terribly book-smart (which she was very upfront about). We ended up with her due to some last minute issues with other candidates. But holy smokes could she ever focus. She could sit down for hours and hours and process way more material (reviewing data, publications, participant communications) than anybody else because she didn’t get sidetracked. What she didn’t know she knew to ask and get clarification on. She would work circles around many “smarter” RAs because of her amazing work ethic. And this isn’t digging ditches, this is honest-to-goodness academic research.
  - travisjungroth 5y ago
    Outlier strengths in one area can make up for weaknesses in others. She had extreme focus, which pushed her past where her intelligence would normally go. Imagine if she had great focus and great intelligence.
    - mlcruz 5y ago
      I'd argue that 'focus' is at least part of what we consider as intelligence.
      - travisjungroth 5y ago
        They're related, but you can isolate them. Raising stakes and immediacy will bring up focus more than intelligence. (but it also might bring up anxiety!)
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
I've been learning to draw lately. It's amazing how much of what we presume to be natural ability is "just" the product of endless work. During my day job, I do math and it's the same. People say "I'm not a math person," but that's as stupid as "I can't draw." It's self fulfilling. Personally, I prefer "work diligently" over "work hard" because the most useful mental model for me is that it's a marathon, not a sprint. The idea is to go far, not fast.
- davegauer 5y ago
  This is spot on. How many people who believe they do not have the ability to draw have ever actually put deliberate practice into it? I can't sit down at a piano and play a song, not because I'm incapable of it, but because I've never put any effort into learning how.
nicbou 5y ago
I saw this in university. You passed the physics exam by studying hard and practicing. People who put in the work got the results. There was no just getting it.
z0ltan 5y ago
> I just cannot, for the life of me, maintain a "work hard" mindset. I'm still trying, You answered your own objection. One key difference between "smart" people and "not so smart" people IS the ability to work hard. This is a very underrated perspective. No offence to you, but the truth is that for many people, despite their wanting to, they cannot work hard. In my humble opinion, this is __one__ of the distinguishing features of smart people - the ability to work hard and long and with a higher threshold of mental and its concomitant physical exhaustion.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
> I've held for a long time that you must know the rules quite well before you're "allowed" to break them, and I think this reinforces my opinion on that. I had an art teacher that pointed this out about Picasso. He got famous for his Cubist/Abstract work, but he was actually an excellent realist.

markus_zhang 5y ago

It really depends on what you define as natural abilities. The ability to work hard for 12 hours without break every day IMHO is as "natural" as having a good IQ.

zqna 5y ago
One attribute of having "high IQ" is being able to understand the vanity of working "hard".
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  There is a line between IQ and wisdom, and wisdom is learned through experience and time.
  - beckingz 5y ago
    I prefer reading.

albatross13 5y ago

It's kind of a double edged sword- I've worked with a few people that "work hard" and "get things done", only to find out once they leave (or go on vacation) that now we have to untangle a 600 line bash script that's integral to production. I'm being a bit hyperbolic here, but the gist of my point is: not everyone who works hard is worth keeping around, especially if their hard work leads to an un-managable mess in the future.

dimitrios1 5y ago
I used to think like this too, but now-a-days, it's more like "What a luxury to be in a position where you get paid to untangle a 600 line bash script" That is, usually these few hard workers are typically the ones responsible for getting a company to profitability precisely because of their GSD attitude. Now that the company has some runway, the architecture and refactoring can proceed.
- albatross13 5y ago
  I can assure you, when shit is broken in production and customers are knocking at the door threatening to cancel it is not a luxury to find out these types of things...let alone start untangling the web.
  - reidjs 5y ago
    He means that those customers wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for the messy code.
    - srean 5y ago
      When things eventually break, its possible that those customers and more would leave also because of that same code.
      - philosopher1234 5y ago
        Anything is possible. Better to focus on what is likely. Did you stop using google over any of their outages? Most people didn't. These things matter, but people in software overstate them.
        srean 5y ago
        Depends on what's on the line. Software for automatic trading, dosing radiotherapy, controller for moonshot etc will have different requirements on correctness than ordering of search results. Ignoring these things can have people killed/ruined and they have.

paulpauper 5y ago

Additionally, I think the obsession over "intelligence" and "natural ability" is vastly overstated, in general. It absolutely helps, and it compounds, to be smart, but a person who "works hard" is infinitely more valuable to their colleagues than a smart person who doesn't, and tries to rely on raw intellect. That may be true for something like digging a ditch, but IQ is needed to make those necessary logical leaps for more abstract matters. Only hard work is like adding 1+2+3....n. Having a high IQ is knowing the shortcut to sum it instantly.

542458 5y ago
So, so little of most people’s work is deep abstract thought like that. I used to have this research assistant - she was from an entirely unrelated arts major, and was a bit… well, let’s say not terribly book-smart (which she was very upfront about). We ended up with her due to some last minute issues with other candidates. But holy smokes could she ever focus. She could sit down for hours and hours and process way more material (reviewing data, publications, participant communications) than anybody else because she didn’t get sidetracked. What she didn’t know she knew to ask and get clarification on. She would work circles around many “smarter” RAs because of her amazing work ethic. And this isn’t digging ditches, this is honest-to-goodness academic research.
- travisjungroth 5y ago
  Outlier strengths in one area can make up for weaknesses in others. She had extreme focus, which pushed her past where her intelligence would normally go. Imagine if she had great focus and great intelligence.
  - mlcruz 5y ago
    I'd argue that 'focus' is at least part of what we consider as intelligence.
    - travisjungroth 5y ago
      They're related, but you can isolate them. Raising stakes and immediacy will bring up focus more than intelligence. (but it also might bring up anxiety!)

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago

I've been learning to draw lately. It's amazing how much of what we presume to be natural ability is "just" the product of endless work. During my day job, I do math and it's the same. People say "I'm not a math person," but that's as stupid as "I can't draw." It's self fulfilling. Personally, I prefer "work diligently" over "work hard" because the most useful mental model for me is that it's a marathon, not a sprint. The idea is to go far, not fast.

davegauer 5y ago
This is spot on. How many people who believe they do not have the ability to draw have ever actually put deliberate practice into it? I can't sit down at a piano and play a song, not because I'm incapable of it, but because I've never put any effort into learning how.

nicbou 5y ago

I saw this in university. You passed the physics exam by studying hard and practicing. People who put in the work got the results. There was no just getting it.

z0ltan 5y ago

> I just cannot, for the life of me, maintain a "work hard" mindset. I'm still trying, You answered your own objection. One key difference between "smart" people and "not so smart" people IS the ability to work hard. This is a very underrated perspective. No offence to you, but the truth is that for many people, despite their wanting to, they cannot work hard. In my humble opinion, this is __one__ of the distinguishing features of smart people - the ability to work hard and long and with a higher threshold of mental and its concomitant physical exhaustion.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

> I've held for a long time that you must know the rules quite well before you're "allowed" to break them, and I think this reinforces my opinion on that. I had an art teacher that pointed this out about Picasso. He got famous for his Cubist/Abstract work, but he was actually an excellent realist.