5 ms·

Apple has surpassed Facebook and Google in violating user trust

92 points by miles 5y ago

marcellus23 5y ago
Apple has definitely lost a lot of trust in the HN crowd, but I'm not really sure how far that extends to the general public.
- system2 5y ago
  Average customer doesn't know. I go to dog parks everyday and talk to people randomly. I mentioned this to some of the dog park friends and they had no clue and didn't care/understand the implications of CSAM.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  And even then, it seems primarily to have lost trust in the people who didn't have much to begin with.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  This is a community of early adopters and also early disposers. I could be wrong but for the first time in my life I am getting a real sense that Apple could be making a huge mistake here.
- Causality1 5y ago
  None whatsoever. This doesn't change the end user experience so the end users won't even notice it let alone care.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Not an inch. Since most people trust Facebook with their photos and google with all their emails, both of them mining your personal data for ads, obviously they will not mind Apple scanning their photos to prevent horrific crimes.
  - b215826 5y ago
    > obviously they will not mind Apple scanning their photos to prevent horrific crimes But Apple scanning all phones for CSAM makes it look like you're guilty unless proven otherwise. It's not even about preventing crimes -- Apple will only flag your device if it has a photo from the CSAM database. In that sense, the most horrific part of the crime, i.e., the abuse of a child, has happened already.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      All the other major services already scan your photos with similar algorithms, the only difference is that apple is trying to do it in a much more robust and privacy preserving way.
anm89 5y ago
As someone who has always despised Apple, more than the rest of FAANG, I disagree with this. It's not even true for me. I view them as user hostile, but less than the rest due only to the nature of their business model being less dependant on selling user data. Somehow to me they are more obnoxious regardless
ummonk 5y ago
They should just scrap any plans they have to roll out end to end encryption of photos and instead just do server side CSAM scanning as Facebook and Google already do.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  Turns out they were, as is industry practice. And their right, as owners of the servers hosting the content. I really hope it gets dropped too. It accelerated a contingency plan of mine where I take the safe assumption that all closed software is actually a cop.
  - azinman2 5y ago
    They were what? Scanning on servers? Then why are the numbers for last year in the low hundreds when FB was almost 17 million?
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      iCloud mail servers: https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/23/apple-scans-icloud-mail-for-csam/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/23/apple-scans-icloud-mail-for-c... They claim to not scan photos in iCloud. But they could turn this on today, and folks would have less concerns than the on-device scanning.
slownews45 5y ago
Should this headline have the word Opinion: or something? These are extremely strong claims, especially vis a vis facebook. "In one fell swoop, Apple destroyed its reputation for privacy and security, surpassing even Facebook and Google in violating user trust". I don't see any survey results. So we are clear, most digital trust surveys show facebook is last in user trust - often 70% - 80% of users do NOT believe facebook protects their privacy. So this is a MAJOR change. In general brand rankings Facebook does MUCH better, but apple still crushes them.
- cobookman 5y ago
  Funny too as both Alphabet & Facebook do CSAM Detection. Believe iOS only uploads the neural-hash if & before the photos are uploaded to iCloud. https://support.google.com/transparencyreport/answer/10330933?hl=en https://support.google.com/transparencyreport/answer/1033093... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/04/google-child-abuse-ncmec-internet-watch-gmail https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/04/google-ch... https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/tech-news-technology/facebook-adds-new-tools-to-stop-sharing-search-for-child-sexual-abuse-material-7203161/ https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/tech-news-techn...
  - slownews45 5y ago
    Right - but without getting into the merits of apple's approach - what is the support for this claim that apple has worse reputation here than facebook etc? I see the links to EFF groups which have (repeatedly) gone crazy over this. But the broader public? Are we even clear that the public doesn't like the new features (snitching on porn going to kids / CSAM detection)? These types of things tend to be pretty politically popular. In other words, if govt does get involved - will it actually block apple from blocking porn sent to children to help prevent apple from "destroying" their users trust? How does that even work politically? I get the HN crowd is majorly against this in aggregate - but that is not the general public (and obviously not all HN folks are making the kinds of claims we are seeing get upvoted here - destroyed all trust, committing felonies etc).
    - 5y ago
htk 5y ago
Hyperbole. Too bad it’s so overused nowadays, but sure attracts views.
stephc_int13 5y ago
As a game developer I can't really ignore or boycott the iOS market, but as a user, I don't think I'll ever use an Apple powered device for anything else than testing my builds. I don't see the point, their products are becoming more bland, pricier and less reliable over time, and I simply don't like or trust the company. This is very early to call it a dead brand, given their huge treasure chest and market inertia, but I think Apple is declining and I don't see them coming back.
- clpm4j 5y ago
  I think you have a very particular point of view. The vast majority of iPhone buyers haven't given this issue more than 2 seconds of thought. The vast majority will buy the next iPhone (or the one after that). And they'll buy another iPad for their kids. And they'll keep using MacBooks.
  - stephc_int13 5y ago
    Maybe. But from my experience, our crowd tend to underestimate its predictive power. We tend to see ourselves as living in a niche, remote area. I remember in 2002-2005, when talking about the possible emergence of Smartphones, most of my friends and co-workers had the opinion that this kind of nerdy devices would never have any appeal to the general public. "People want simple phones" "People don't care" I am not so sure about that, but it takes time.
  - injvstice 5y ago
    Our family was like that. We had every single device version up to iPhone 11. Then Apple bent to the will of the Chinese government and removed apps used by HK protesters. I don't live in Hong Kong, and I'm not affected, but it was a red flag (no pun intended). Then they bent to the will of the new US administration, removed Parler, and threatened Telegram. I use neither, but again, red flag. Now this. Textbook definition of hypocrisy, maybe? We were in a holding pattern on Apple upgrades since the HK decision, and now we are two generations behind on iPhones, and (I think) four generations behind on iPads. The thought of upgrading and giving Apple more money is not appealing to any of us, so we'll keep our current devices for as long as they work, while searching for an exit from the Apple ecosystem. It's just anecdotal, and I'm sure Tim Cook won't lose sleep over losing three iPhone and three iPad sales. Law, order, morality.. those are things defined by a democratically elected legislative branch, and enforced by the judiciary branch, not by rich suits in closed off board rooms. In my mind, this is just a cooperation between law enforcement and big tech to get around the 4th amendment protection.
aborsy 5y ago
A company that wants to pioneer client side scanning in industry is of course not trusted.
unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
None of the articles adequately address 'why' Apple is taking this risk, and I haven't seen any plausible explanation from the company. I can't help but want to connect all the noise in the antitrust arena to this development.
- azinman2 5y ago
  Or, more obviously, the internal memos from Epic trial saying Apple has a CP problem coupled with a desire to create a system they could run on encrypted photos (assuming this is a missing piece for full E2E).
  - unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
    That's exactly it! The entire C-suite is left defending Apple's brand in an antitrust trial on the basis of propriety ,[1] that Apple has the adults in the room, which has been the impetus for the abrupt hard turn away from privacy. That narrative leaves me feeling very little sympathy for Apple, unfortunately. [1] https://mlexmarketinsight.com/news-hub/editors-picks/area-of-expertise/antitrust/at-epic-games-us-antitrust-trial-apple-casts-itself-as-the-adult-in-the-room https://mlexmarketinsight.com/news-hub/editors-picks/area-of...
- concinds 5y ago
  Apple themselves addressed "why", summarized here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28176418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28176418 The facts remain that: a) Apple's new system is strictly superior to PhotoDNA in every respect people complain about, including malicious insertions of non-CSAM hashes (since you'd need 30 matches with Apple, and 1 with every other online service); and b) concerns about the local implementation mostly rely on fear of the unknown and illogical arguments (Apple's system makes it no more likely than before that we'll see backdoors in their OSes, and if that ever happens researchers would certainly discover it).
pjbeam 5y ago
Title might want to add "in my opinion" or something. At first glance this claim seems absurd however Apple has really sold itself as megacorp champion of privacy whereas the other two haven't. Perhaps not as ridiculous as it looks but hardly factual.
azinman2 5y ago
“It’s now crystal clear why Apple tried to exclude dozens of its own processes from network monitoring last year; to pave the way for total (and leaky and dangerous) control over our digital lives.” The hashes get uploaded with the photo up iCloud. You don’t need to prevent a firewall as you could just block both. This article is a lot of conjecture presented as fact. I’m sad HN is so willing to entertain clickbait these days.
nbzso 5y ago
I see a lot of Applelogism here. From techies with Apple fetish. I understand, as long time Apple user it is hard. And nothing resembling proportional response from them. Silence is golden. PR stunt from Federighi with scripted narrative aired trough WSJ and technical documentation. This comes from a company with recently removed black billboards with advertising slogan : What Happens On Your iPhone, Stays On Your iPhone. And even Apple sells a lot of iPhone's, the "normies" already have being alerted. So do not be so sure about hyperbole. No sane professional will trust a workstation with "scanning" functionality defined by third party given parameters and Apple Police in the background.
Lamad123 5y ago
At least google et al. are mostly honest about what they do!
sombremesa 5y ago
HN has surpassed all three with posts like these.
injvstice 5y ago
The problem is, you are only "this" far away from Apple engineers and third parties perusing your private photos due to a photo that triggers false positives.
AnonC 5y ago
One more “Apple is an epic fail” post? “Surpassed Facebook and Google” — are you kidding me? I’m quite upset about the recently announced on device scanning, but the wording of the title here is just nonsensical. Apple would have to do something like the CSAM implementation a thousand times or more to be close to the abuses by Facebook and Google. You have no clue if you’re putting Facebook and Google ahead of Apple on privacy and user trust.

92 points by miles 5y ago

Apple has definitely lost a lot of trust in the HN crowd, but I'm not really sure how far that extends to the general public.

system2 5y ago
Average customer doesn't know. I go to dog parks everyday and talk to people randomly. I mentioned this to some of the dog park friends and they had no clue and didn't care/understand the implications of CSAM.
rootusrootus 5y ago
And even then, it seems primarily to have lost trust in the people who didn't have much to begin with.
jliptzin 5y ago
This is a community of early adopters and also early disposers. I could be wrong but for the first time in my life I am getting a real sense that Apple could be making a huge mistake here.
Causality1 5y ago
None whatsoever. This doesn't change the end user experience so the end users won't even notice it let alone care.
Grustaf 5y ago
Not an inch. Since most people trust Facebook with their photos and google with all their emails, both of them mining your personal data for ads, obviously they will not mind Apple scanning their photos to prevent horrific crimes.
- b215826 5y ago
  > obviously they will not mind Apple scanning their photos to prevent horrific crimes But Apple scanning all phones for CSAM makes it look like you're guilty unless proven otherwise. It's not even about preventing crimes -- Apple will only flag your device if it has a photo from the CSAM database. In that sense, the most horrific part of the crime, i.e., the abuse of a child, has happened already.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    All the other major services already scan your photos with similar algorithms, the only difference is that apple is trying to do it in a much more robust and privacy preserving way.

anm89 5y ago

As someone who has always despised Apple, more than the rest of FAANG, I disagree with this. It's not even true for me. I view them as user hostile, but less than the rest due only to the nature of their business model being less dependant on selling user data. Somehow to me they are more obnoxious regardless

ummonk 5y ago

They should just scrap any plans they have to roll out end to end encryption of photos and instead just do server side CSAM scanning as Facebook and Google already do.

randomhodler84 5y ago
Turns out they were, as is industry practice. And their right, as owners of the servers hosting the content. I really hope it gets dropped too. It accelerated a contingency plan of mine where I take the safe assumption that all closed software is actually a cop.
- azinman2 5y ago
  They were what? Scanning on servers? Then why are the numbers for last year in the low hundreds when FB was almost 17 million?
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    iCloud mail servers: https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/23/apple-scans-icloud-mail-for-csam/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/23/apple-scans-icloud-mail-for-c... They claim to not scan photos in iCloud. But they could turn this on today, and folks would have less concerns than the on-device scanning.

slownews45 5y ago

Should this headline have the word Opinion: or something? These are extremely strong claims, especially vis a vis facebook. "In one fell swoop, Apple destroyed its reputation for privacy and security, surpassing even Facebook and Google in violating user trust". I don't see any survey results. So we are clear, most digital trust surveys show facebook is last in user trust - often 70% - 80% of users do NOT believe facebook protects their privacy. So this is a MAJOR change. In general brand rankings Facebook does MUCH better, but apple still crushes them.

cobookman 5y ago
Funny too as both Alphabet & Facebook do CSAM Detection. Believe iOS only uploads the neural-hash if & before the photos are uploaded to iCloud. https://support.google.com/transparencyreport/answer/10330933?hl=en https://support.google.com/transparencyreport/answer/1033093... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/04/google-child-abuse-ncmec-internet-watch-gmail https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/04/google-ch... https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/tech-news-technology/facebook-adds-new-tools-to-stop-sharing-search-for-child-sexual-abuse-material-7203161/ https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/tech-news-techn...
- slownews45 5y ago
  Right - but without getting into the merits of apple's approach - what is the support for this claim that apple has worse reputation here than facebook etc? I see the links to EFF groups which have (repeatedly) gone crazy over this. But the broader public? Are we even clear that the public doesn't like the new features (snitching on porn going to kids / CSAM detection)? These types of things tend to be pretty politically popular. In other words, if govt does get involved - will it actually block apple from blocking porn sent to children to help prevent apple from "destroying" their users trust? How does that even work politically? I get the HN crowd is majorly against this in aggregate - but that is not the general public (and obviously not all HN folks are making the kinds of claims we are seeing get upvoted here - destroyed all trust, committing felonies etc).
  - 5y ago

htk 5y ago

Hyperbole. Too bad it’s so overused nowadays, but sure attracts views.

stephc_int13 5y ago

As a game developer I can't really ignore or boycott the iOS market, but as a user, I don't think I'll ever use an Apple powered device for anything else than testing my builds. I don't see the point, their products are becoming more bland, pricier and less reliable over time, and I simply don't like or trust the company. This is very early to call it a dead brand, given their huge treasure chest and market inertia, but I think Apple is declining and I don't see them coming back.

clpm4j 5y ago
I think you have a very particular point of view. The vast majority of iPhone buyers haven't given this issue more than 2 seconds of thought. The vast majority will buy the next iPhone (or the one after that). And they'll buy another iPad for their kids. And they'll keep using MacBooks.
- stephc_int13 5y ago
  Maybe. But from my experience, our crowd tend to underestimate its predictive power. We tend to see ourselves as living in a niche, remote area. I remember in 2002-2005, when talking about the possible emergence of Smartphones, most of my friends and co-workers had the opinion that this kind of nerdy devices would never have any appeal to the general public. "People want simple phones" "People don't care" I am not so sure about that, but it takes time.
- injvstice 5y ago
  Our family was like that. We had every single device version up to iPhone 11. Then Apple bent to the will of the Chinese government and removed apps used by HK protesters. I don't live in Hong Kong, and I'm not affected, but it was a red flag (no pun intended). Then they bent to the will of the new US administration, removed Parler, and threatened Telegram. I use neither, but again, red flag. Now this. Textbook definition of hypocrisy, maybe? We were in a holding pattern on Apple upgrades since the HK decision, and now we are two generations behind on iPhones, and (I think) four generations behind on iPads. The thought of upgrading and giving Apple more money is not appealing to any of us, so we'll keep our current devices for as long as they work, while searching for an exit from the Apple ecosystem. It's just anecdotal, and I'm sure Tim Cook won't lose sleep over losing three iPhone and three iPad sales. Law, order, morality.. those are things defined by a democratically elected legislative branch, and enforced by the judiciary branch, not by rich suits in closed off board rooms. In my mind, this is just a cooperation between law enforcement and big tech to get around the 4th amendment protection.

aborsy 5y ago

A company that wants to pioneer client side scanning in industry is of course not trusted.

unyttigfjelltol 5y ago

None of the articles adequately address 'why' Apple is taking this risk, and I haven't seen any plausible explanation from the company. I can't help but want to connect all the noise in the antitrust arena to this development.

azinman2 5y ago
Or, more obviously, the internal memos from Epic trial saying Apple has a CP problem coupled with a desire to create a system they could run on encrypted photos (assuming this is a missing piece for full E2E).
- unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
  That's exactly it! The entire C-suite is left defending Apple's brand in an antitrust trial on the basis of propriety ,[1] that Apple has the adults in the room, which has been the impetus for the abrupt hard turn away from privacy. That narrative leaves me feeling very little sympathy for Apple, unfortunately. [1] https://mlexmarketinsight.com/news-hub/editors-picks/area-of-expertise/antitrust/at-epic-games-us-antitrust-trial-apple-casts-itself-as-the-adult-in-the-room https://mlexmarketinsight.com/news-hub/editors-picks/area-of...
concinds 5y ago
Apple themselves addressed "why", summarized here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28176418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28176418 The facts remain that: a) Apple's new system is strictly superior to PhotoDNA in every respect people complain about, including malicious insertions of non-CSAM hashes (since you'd need 30 matches with Apple, and 1 with every other online service); and b) concerns about the local implementation mostly rely on fear of the unknown and illogical arguments (Apple's system makes it no more likely than before that we'll see backdoors in their OSes, and if that ever happens researchers would certainly discover it).

pjbeam 5y ago

Title might want to add "in my opinion" or something. At first glance this claim seems absurd however Apple has really sold itself as megacorp champion of privacy whereas the other two haven't. Perhaps not as ridiculous as it looks but hardly factual.

azinman2 5y ago

“It’s now crystal clear why Apple tried to exclude dozens of its own processes from network monitoring last year; to pave the way for total (and leaky and dangerous) control over our digital lives.” The hashes get uploaded with the photo up iCloud. You don’t need to prevent a firewall as you could just block both. This article is a lot of conjecture presented as fact. I’m sad HN is so willing to entertain clickbait these days.

nbzso 5y ago

I see a lot of Applelogism here. From techies with Apple fetish. I understand, as long time Apple user it is hard. And nothing resembling proportional response from them. Silence is golden. PR stunt from Federighi with scripted narrative aired trough WSJ and technical documentation. This comes from a company with recently removed black billboards with advertising slogan : What Happens On Your iPhone, Stays On Your iPhone. And even Apple sells a lot of iPhone's, the "normies" already have being alerted. So do not be so sure about hyperbole. No sane professional will trust a workstation with "scanning" functionality defined by third party given parameters and Apple Police in the background.

Lamad123 5y ago

At least google et al. are mostly honest about what they do!

sombremesa 5y ago

HN has surpassed all three with posts like these.

injvstice 5y ago

The problem is, you are only "this" far away from Apple engineers and third parties perusing your private photos due to a photo that triggers false positives.

AnonC 5y ago

One more “Apple is an epic fail” post? “Surpassed Facebook and Google” — are you kidding me? I’m quite upset about the recently announced on device scanning, but the wording of the title here is just nonsensical. Apple would have to do something like the CSAM implementation a thousand times or more to be close to the abuses by Facebook and Google. You have no clue if you’re putting Facebook and Google ahead of Apple on privacy and user trust.