6 ms·

I have yet to meet someone IRL who thinks what was done to native Americans was just and also condemns the CCP for their treatment of minorities.

by swiley 5y ago

vkou 5y ago
You'll immediately find a lot of those people if you re-frame the question in terms of reparations. In the same way, there's no shortage of people in America condemning police treatment of HK protestors (Repressed people fighting for freedom), who also support police treatment of BLM protestors (Rioters and lowlifes with no real grievances who just want to ruin everything). That's because most people don't hold political ideology derived from first principles, they just check what their political tribe likes/hates, and follow suit.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Not everyone views reparations are an appropriate response for past injustices. Your framing the situation is a litmus-test aimed at excluding people. Every human being in history is at the tail of a long line of injustices and atrocities. The current way to fix things today is to look at the situation people are in, today, and remediate as necessary. I'm the 4th generation from eastern european serfs, who were treated as livestock or part of the land. It doesn't affect me today in the slightest. I don't deserve reparations. This isn't an argument against a social safety net or social welfare. It's an argument against crude race-based cash transfers that ignore who is and isn't hindered today by past injustices.
  - vkou 5y ago
    My framing is the only meaningful litmus test. I don't give a shit about feelings, are you going to do anything about past and current injustice, where you can? The answer, in the United States, is predominantly "No" from both sides of the political spectrum to the first question, and "Mostly No/No" to the second. I'd also like to point out that even the Soviet Union/the Russian Federation flirted with reparations for victims of Stalin's repression.
    - bpodgursky 5y ago
      I apologize if I do not use the Soviet Union as a template for my social justice policies.
afandian 5y ago
Does anyone think what was done to Native Americans was just?
- VictorPath 5y ago
  was?
  - lucasmullens 5y ago
    It's okay to talk about the past even if things still exist in the present.
    - bseidensticker 5y ago
      Sure but using the past tense implies that the thing does not happen anymore. That's why the Mitch Hedberg bit is funny (I used to do drugs... I still do but I used to, too) is humorous. It subverts your expectation that the thing you "used to do" is a thing you no longer do. The US used to do horrible things to Natives... it still does but it used to, too.
- rayiner 5y ago
  Not “just” but I suspect most people in the world are indifferent to a more technologically advanced civilization displacing a less technologically advanced one. It’s how most of the world got to be the way it is and most people don’t really think about it too much. In Bangladesh we have the hill people, which we have treated similarly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chittagong_Hill_Tracts_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chittagong_Hill_Tracts_conflic.... People are pretty blase about it when it comes up.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    I'm assuming it didn't help that Raja Tridiv Roy supported Pakistan in 1971.
Aunche 5y ago
How many Americans who condemn the CCP would be in favor of other nations punishing the US for all their atrocities?
- actuator 5y ago
  Is it happening right now as we speak? If we go enough back in time every nation has blood on their hands.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    I hope that the Taliban's 1 week takeover of the Afghanistan opens people's eyes as to how little Westerners understand what residents of developing countries perceive to be good or evil.
    - actuator 5y ago
      Oh, their presence there was definitely ill thought; so was destabilising it during cold war through the same means that bit them back. For this, tough action for them and their allies did make sense just like it does for CCP at this point.
      - Aunche 5y ago
        > For this, tough action for them and their allies did make sense just like it does for CCP at this point. But why? Would you still support this if the punishment cost you your job? Meanwhile, does this disincentivize the CIA from stirring conflict in another region? I think that biggest weakness with American foreign policy is that it's incapable of distinguishing between geopolitical interests and humanitarian interests. As a result, we aren't particularly good at advancing either.
  - optimalsolver 5y ago
    >Is it happening right now as we speak? The Black Lives Matter protests of the past year say yes.
VictorPath 5y ago
> yet to meet someone IRL who thinks what was done to native Americans was just By was, I presume you mean five years ago, as the US broke the Treaty of Fort Laramie, pepper spraying and sicing guard dogs on natives in Standing Rock in order to build an oil pipeline. The natives testified at the UN human rights council as to what was happening. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_prote...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

I have yet to meet someone IRL who thinks what was done to native Americans was just and also condemns the CCP for their treatment of minorities.

by swiley 5y ago

I have yet to meet someone IRL who thinks what was done to native Americans was just and also condemns the CCP for their treatment of minorities.

vkou 5y ago

You'll immediately find a lot of those people if you re-frame the question in terms of reparations. In the same way, there's no shortage of people in America condemning police treatment of HK protestors (Repressed people fighting for freedom), who also support police treatment of BLM protestors (Rioters and lowlifes with no real grievances who just want to ruin everything). That's because most people don't hold political ideology derived from first principles, they just check what their political tribe likes/hates, and follow suit.

bpodgursky 5y ago
Not everyone views reparations are an appropriate response for past injustices. Your framing the situation is a litmus-test aimed at excluding people. Every human being in history is at the tail of a long line of injustices and atrocities. The current way to fix things today is to look at the situation people are in, today, and remediate as necessary. I'm the 4th generation from eastern european serfs, who were treated as livestock or part of the land. It doesn't affect me today in the slightest. I don't deserve reparations. This isn't an argument against a social safety net or social welfare. It's an argument against crude race-based cash transfers that ignore who is and isn't hindered today by past injustices.
- vkou 5y ago
  My framing is the only meaningful litmus test. I don't give a shit about feelings, are you going to do anything about past and current injustice, where you can? The answer, in the United States, is predominantly "No" from both sides of the political spectrum to the first question, and "Mostly No/No" to the second. I'd also like to point out that even the Soviet Union/the Russian Federation flirted with reparations for victims of Stalin's repression.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    I apologize if I do not use the Soviet Union as a template for my social justice policies.

afandian 5y ago

Does anyone think what was done to Native Americans was just?

VictorPath 5y ago
was?
- lucasmullens 5y ago
  It's okay to talk about the past even if things still exist in the present.
  - bseidensticker 5y ago
    Sure but using the past tense implies that the thing does not happen anymore. That's why the Mitch Hedberg bit is funny (I used to do drugs... I still do but I used to, too) is humorous. It subverts your expectation that the thing you "used to do" is a thing you no longer do. The US used to do horrible things to Natives... it still does but it used to, too.
rayiner 5y ago
Not “just” but I suspect most people in the world are indifferent to a more technologically advanced civilization displacing a less technologically advanced one. It’s how most of the world got to be the way it is and most people don’t really think about it too much. In Bangladesh we have the hill people, which we have treated similarly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chittagong_Hill_Tracts_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chittagong_Hill_Tracts_conflic.... People are pretty blase about it when it comes up.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  I'm assuming it didn't help that Raja Tridiv Roy supported Pakistan in 1971.

Aunche 5y ago

How many Americans who condemn the CCP would be in favor of other nations punishing the US for all their atrocities?

actuator 5y ago
Is it happening right now as we speak? If we go enough back in time every nation has blood on their hands.
- Aunche 5y ago
  I hope that the Taliban's 1 week takeover of the Afghanistan opens people's eyes as to how little Westerners understand what residents of developing countries perceive to be good or evil.
  - actuator 5y ago
    Oh, their presence there was definitely ill thought; so was destabilising it during cold war through the same means that bit them back. For this, tough action for them and their allies did make sense just like it does for CCP at this point.
    - Aunche 5y ago
      > For this, tough action for them and their allies did make sense just like it does for CCP at this point. But why? Would you still support this if the punishment cost you your job? Meanwhile, does this disincentivize the CIA from stirring conflict in another region? I think that biggest weakness with American foreign policy is that it's incapable of distinguishing between geopolitical interests and humanitarian interests. As a result, we aren't particularly good at advancing either.
- optimalsolver 5y ago
  >Is it happening right now as we speak? The Black Lives Matter protests of the past year say yes.

VictorPath 5y ago

> yet to meet someone IRL who thinks what was done to native Americans was just By was, I presume you mean five years ago, as the US broke the Treaty of Fort Laramie, pepper spraying and sicing guard dogs on natives in Standing Rock in order to build an oil pipeline. The natives testified at the UN human rights council as to what was happening. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_prote...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]