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It has to be said that I find the ties to the Russian government most disturbing for a "privacy"-focused OS, specially after I realized it's not actually OSS.

It has to be said that I find the ties to the Russian government most disturbing for a "privacy"-focused OS, specially after I realized it's not actually OSS. EDIT: Emphasis on the non-OSS part. I couldn't care less as long as it was actually fully open.

smallerfish 5y ago
Can you point to references about Russian gov involvement? I see from the Sailfish page that it's deployed widely in Russia, but Jolla themselves are Finnish (https://jolla.com/about/ https://jolla.com/about/), not exactly the most Russia friendly country around. That their OS is used in Russia isn't the same as it being Russian developed, which it doesn't appear to be(?)
- Raed667 5y ago
  > Russia trusts in Aurora OS > One of the first customers for OMP was Russian Post https://sailfishos.org/cases/ https://sailfishos.org/cases/
  - smallerfish 5y ago
    > The product was soon re-branded to Aurora OS. Aurora OS is an independent, “standalone” product and derivative work of Sailfish OS, and property of Open Mobile Platform LLC. From your link. Is there any evidence of them pushing code back upstream?
    - mpol 5y ago
      Yes, the latest release have seen some code contributions from Aurora. Some well-known people in the community even work for Aurora, like coderus. To be fair, without the Russian investor, there would be no Jolla anymore :)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- xeeeeeeeeeeenu 5y ago
  They probably meant this: https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish-family/ https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish...
l-albertovich 5y ago
Up till now I was thinking this seemed very interesting and the price point of getting it wasn't bad at all (quickly searched amzn to see what the Xperia 10 II price was) but if what you say is true then it would be kind of worrying. Edit: For some reason I missed a bunch of words when I posted.
nabla9 5y ago
This is not true. Russian connection is just the Russian government decision to use Sailfish as the base for their own Aurora OS. China and India are also somewhat interested.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  Rostelecom (Russia public telecom) basically has majority stake in Sailfish. This stuff is not hard to search online, you know. https://together.jolla.com/question/178875/rostelecom-acquiring-votron-the-majority-owner-in-jolla/ https://together.jolla.com/question/178875/rostelecom-acquir... https://www.mobileworldlive.com/devices/news-devices/russian-operator-linked-with-sailfish-buy https://www.mobileworldlive.com/devices/news-devices/russian... https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish-family/ https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish... et al. But this is not the problem. I would not have any problem with a 100% russian OS, as long as it was OSS. But Sailfish is also not OSS. That is the problem.
  - mpol 5y ago
    "But Sailfish is also not OSS. That is the problem." I see this posted as a problem often, sometimes even "the" problem. I do understand it is a problem, but at the current moment there has been no better Linux phone then a Jolla or Sony with Sailfish. So for people shying away from Sailfish, because it is not fully open source, I wonder what people use instead. Is it an open source AOSP system (with probably binary drivers)? I would not trust that all Google stuff was removed from AOSP, I don't even trust it for Chromium. Or do people use Ubuntu Touch that is probably fully open source on some systems? Everything right now is a compromise. I do hope that it will change in the near future. My main argument for the last 7 years was that I want a Linux phone in my pocket, that I can order today and use tomorrow. A Linux phone that serves me, with simple root access, ssh access, compiling apps and installing anything, messing about in /etc.
    - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
      Because if there's something proprietary running on it, how are you going to "install anything" without breaking the proprietary parts? You will not be able to replace the kernel, you will not be able to upgrade any library (not even libssl when the time comes, and it will come), you will not be able to customize the software to your liking, etc. You lose half the benefits of having an open system in the first place. I will have exactly the same issues than I do when a run Google Android: no control over the device. You're 100% at the whims of Sailfish. And as for "OSS Android" still having unknown Google stuff, I disagree.
the-dude 5y ago
At least I won't be extradited to Russia.
debacle 5y ago
It has to be said that if you are more worried about Russian involvement than you would be Britain, the US, or China you might be ethnist.
james-bcn 5y ago
I don't see any ties with the Russian government, just that they are getting investment from a Russian telecom.
- dgudkov 5y ago
  A Russian state-owned telecom.
zozbot234 5y ago
The open source part is basically a middleware layer that uses libhybris to work with downstream AOSP kernels and device drivers. This might have been useful at some point, but we have better choices now, like forward-porting these supported devices to work properly with a mainline kernel and userspace.
poetaster 5y ago
A great deal is FOSS. Look on github. All my apps are gpl. The move away from libhybris is just a matter of time. And jolla has more experience in the space than anyone.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  No, you're wrong like I was. It's not just the hardware parts that are closed (what's under libhybris). It's also the entire UI toolkit (the library that they have on top of Qt) and most of the built-in applications that are closed source.
  - tbr 5y ago
    Yep, "Always has been" sigh
  - poetaster 5y ago
    Hmm. Don't use the built ins, but i do use silica. My focus is to do dev, and convince them to open more as the external devs generate more value. See the obs build service... Etc.
    - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
      You do not even use the builtin phone dialer? It's closed. Settings app? Closed. Etc.
    - poetaster 5y ago
      Well, i do use contacts and dialer and the broken settings interfaces. Yep, it us all just one grand experiment. I rdcdntly had to ask where in qml land to hack my event screen. Well, that was hackable. I dint buy marketing bull from anyone. I wasnt and am not interested in the privacy angle as long as google and apple are the norm.
    - poetaster 5y ago
      Also, closed source shoos that actively promote patching are ok by me.

smallerfish 5y ago

Can you point to references about Russian gov involvement? I see from the Sailfish page that it's deployed widely in Russia, but Jolla themselves are Finnish (https://jolla.com/about/ https://jolla.com/about/), not exactly the most Russia friendly country around. That their OS is used in Russia isn't the same as it being Russian developed, which it doesn't appear to be(?)

Raed667 5y ago
> Russia trusts in Aurora OS > One of the first customers for OMP was Russian Post https://sailfishos.org/cases/ https://sailfishos.org/cases/
- smallerfish 5y ago
  > The product was soon re-branded to Aurora OS. Aurora OS is an independent, “standalone” product and derivative work of Sailfish OS, and property of Open Mobile Platform LLC. From your link. Is there any evidence of them pushing code back upstream?
  - mpol 5y ago
    Yes, the latest release have seen some code contributions from Aurora. Some well-known people in the community even work for Aurora, like coderus. To be fair, without the Russian investor, there would be no Jolla anymore :)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
xeeeeeeeeeeenu 5y ago
They probably meant this: https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish-family/ https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish...

l-albertovich 5y ago

Up till now I was thinking this seemed very interesting and the price point of getting it wasn't bad at all (quickly searched amzn to see what the Xperia 10 II price was) but if what you say is true then it would be kind of worrying. Edit: For some reason I missed a bunch of words when I posted.

nabla9 5y ago

This is not true. Russian connection is just the Russian government decision to use Sailfish as the base for their own Aurora OS. China and India are also somewhat interested.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago
Rostelecom (Russia public telecom) basically has majority stake in Sailfish. This stuff is not hard to search online, you know. https://together.jolla.com/question/178875/rostelecom-acquiring-votron-the-majority-owner-in-jolla/ https://together.jolla.com/question/178875/rostelecom-acquir... https://www.mobileworldlive.com/devices/news-devices/russian-operator-linked-with-sailfish-buy https://www.mobileworldlive.com/devices/news-devices/russian... https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish-family/ https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-investor-joins-sailfish... et al. But this is not the problem. I would not have any problem with a 100% russian OS, as long as it was OSS. But Sailfish is also not OSS. That is the problem.
- mpol 5y ago
  "But Sailfish is also not OSS. That is the problem." I see this posted as a problem often, sometimes even "the" problem. I do understand it is a problem, but at the current moment there has been no better Linux phone then a Jolla or Sony with Sailfish. So for people shying away from Sailfish, because it is not fully open source, I wonder what people use instead. Is it an open source AOSP system (with probably binary drivers)? I would not trust that all Google stuff was removed from AOSP, I don't even trust it for Chromium. Or do people use Ubuntu Touch that is probably fully open source on some systems? Everything right now is a compromise. I do hope that it will change in the near future. My main argument for the last 7 years was that I want a Linux phone in my pocket, that I can order today and use tomorrow. A Linux phone that serves me, with simple root access, ssh access, compiling apps and installing anything, messing about in /etc.
  - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
    Because if there's something proprietary running on it, how are you going to "install anything" without breaking the proprietary parts? You will not be able to replace the kernel, you will not be able to upgrade any library (not even libssl when the time comes, and it will come), you will not be able to customize the software to your liking, etc. You lose half the benefits of having an open system in the first place. I will have exactly the same issues than I do when a run Google Android: no control over the device. You're 100% at the whims of Sailfish. And as for "OSS Android" still having unknown Google stuff, I disagree.

the-dude 5y ago

At least I won't be extradited to Russia.

debacle 5y ago

It has to be said that if you are more worried about Russian involvement than you would be Britain, the US, or China you might be ethnist.

james-bcn 5y ago

I don't see any ties with the Russian government, just that they are getting investment from a Russian telecom.

dgudkov 5y ago
A Russian state-owned telecom.

zozbot234 5y ago

The open source part is basically a middleware layer that uses libhybris to work with downstream AOSP kernels and device drivers. This might have been useful at some point, but we have better choices now, like forward-porting these supported devices to work properly with a mainline kernel and userspace.

poetaster 5y ago

A great deal is FOSS. Look on github. All my apps are gpl. The move away from libhybris is just a matter of time. And jolla has more experience in the space than anyone.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago
No, you're wrong like I was. It's not just the hardware parts that are closed (what's under libhybris). It's also the entire UI toolkit (the library that they have on top of Qt) and most of the built-in applications that are closed source.
- tbr 5y ago
  Yep, "Always has been" sigh
- poetaster 5y ago
  Hmm. Don't use the built ins, but i do use silica. My focus is to do dev, and convince them to open more as the external devs generate more value. See the obs build service... Etc.
  - AshamedCaptain 5y ago
    You do not even use the builtin phone dialer? It's closed. Settings app? Closed. Etc.
  - poetaster 5y ago
    Well, i do use contacts and dialer and the broken settings interfaces. Yep, it us all just one grand experiment. I rdcdntly had to ask where in qml land to hack my event screen. Well, that was hackable. I dint buy marketing bull from anyone. I wasnt and am not interested in the privacy angle as long as google and apple are the norm.
  - poetaster 5y ago
    Also, closed source shoos that actively promote patching are ok by me.