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I don’t understand why this outrage seems so US-centric. This is the same Apple that hands over all your iCloud data (photos and otherwise) to the CCP if you ha

I don’t understand why this outrage seems so US-centric. This is the same Apple that hands over all your iCloud data (photos and otherwise) to the CCP if you happen to live in China. And they’ve done this openly for the last several years. What am I missing? Isn’t that a much much much much worse thing for Apple to do? Why are we only suddenly suspicious of Apple’s privacy claims with this matter?

shuckles 5y ago
As far as is documented, the behavior of iCloud does not change, just the operator. In particular, the difference is that end to end encrypted data in iCloud remains that way, so saying all iCloud data is handed over is incorrect. In fact, iMessage is the only end to end encrypted messaging service operating in the country (for example).
- whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
  It’s my understanding that the keys used in that “end-to-end” encryption are also under the control of the operator [1], so from a privacy perspective it is the same as handing over that data in plaintext. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
  - shuckles 5y ago
    It’s an incorrect reading of the article. The HSMs in the data center are operated by the Chinese company so any CloudKit data escrowed by Apple could be accessed, but end to end encryption keys are synced through iCloud Keychain which uses a different protocol with device secrets.
    - whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
      Do you have any sources for that? I ask because the article I linked specifically states that Apple was forced to discard the entire encryption system it uses elsewhere. It’s also hard to understand why a government would insist on this sort of data custody without the benefit of plaintext access.
      - shuckles 5y ago
        The key generation routine for iCloud Keychain is shipped in iOS and tangled with your device passcode. Chinese iPhones have the same iOS builds as iPhones everywhere, so if some backdoor code was present to have them generate iCloud Keychain keys differently, someone would have found it. Here’s what I think the article is trying to describe: 1. It is known that Apple houses Chinese iCloud user data in Chinese servers. Apple has said so: https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/apple-ceo-tim-cook-on-china-data-location-doesnt-equal-access/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/apple-ceo-ti... 2. China refuses to support Thales’s HSMs, so Apple had to build their own, presumably based on the secure element: https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/1394395078010052613?s=20 https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/13943950780100526... I think #2 is what the article characterizes as “discarding entire encryption system.” However, the encryption of iCloud Keychain isn’t dependent on HSMs in the same way the rest of iCloud data is. As a result, E2E encrypted iCloud data for Chinese users is probably still safe in China. Given physical access and non-standard HSMs, non E2E encrypted data in iCloud probably is not. It will be very interesting to track the consequences if and when iCloud moves more data into E2E encryption, since the majority of synced data is not: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
    - nicce 5y ago
      Apple put a lot of money to design that HSM to lock themselves out. Chinese can’t access iCloud Keychain as plaintext. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/08/13/is-apples-cloud-key-vault-crypto/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/08/13/is-apple...
mindwok 5y ago
It's my understanding that Apple simply can't operate in China without playing by those rules. So really, the onus is on the CCP. In this case, is Apple being compelled to do this by the US government? Or is it a choice Apple has made purely internally? I think that makes a difference.
- whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
  I agree the question of whether Apple was compelled by whatever government (or if they did this voluntarily) has implications on the ethics of these decisions. They may genuinely have no choice. But I don’t see how it affects the question of whether Apple’s privacy assertions are trustworthy.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    >> They may genuinely have no choice. There is a choice. Don't comply and have the CCP make you stop selling there. Apple has no principles that can't be tossed aside in exchange for a large market - in other words a lot of money. This should not be unexpected.
    - whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
      Well put. Perhaps it’s cynical, I think that’s true of any corporation of Apple’s size: their only true principle is to maximize shareholder value. The best we can do as privacy-concerned mere-mortals is to take our business where those profit incentives align with our values. Apple’s put a lot of work into advertising that their profits are aligned with values of privacy, but some signs say otherwise.
      - yarky 5y ago
        You shouldn't expect privacy from a third party. You'll be disappointed by definition.
    - cwp 5y ago
      The CCP would make Apple stop manufacturing in China, which would effectively mean that they couldn't sell anything anywhere. Apple does have very deep pockets, but that would be an existential threat.
chrischen 5y ago
As an American I couldn’t care less that Chinese people’s data is handed over to Chinese people’s government, especially considering the alternative would be that Chinese people’s data is handed over to a US entity and by association the US government. Contrary to popular belief, iCloud data, while encrypted, can be decrypted by Apple and is subject to US law enforcement requests. * Considering this fact, it is pretty one-sighted to see this as some sort of unconceivable act. However if you look at it from the other side would we want all American user data (assuming Russia had a company that had such pervasive penetration into American lives as Apple does globally) to be sitting on Russian servers subject to arbitrary Russian laws? So if you only consider American interests, it’s unconceivable for us to give up such power and control over other sovereign nations, but perhaps other countries don’t care about American interests like we do. All Apple did in China was comply with local laws to stay in business there. What Apple is doing in the US is not mandated by law (as far as I know). From the American side Apple has marketed itself as privacy focused, even fighting the FBI publicly at the risk of negative publicity. This about face is unexpected but also betrays those of us who invested in the Apple product line under the expectation they continue this standard of privacy and security that was marketed. Chinese people probably never expected this level of privacy to begin with, but we did and we can. * iCloud messages backups can be decrypted
- phkahler 5y ago
  Tic-toc
- nicce 5y ago
  > Contrary to popular belief, iCloud data, while encrypted, can be decrypted by Apple and is subject to US law enforcement requests. The most seem to forget, that with this newcoming feature this is not possible anymore. Apple can’t decrypt your images anymore by request. (Read Apple’s PSI system) There is also strong evidence that same is coming for backups. On iOS 15 beta, there is backup recovery option by authentication key.
  - kristjansson 5y ago
    They can’t decrypt the safety vouchers, which contain low resolution versions of your image until the conditions are met … which makes no sense as they have access to the cleartext full resolution image right there. Unless of course this is a precursor to an E2E encrypted iCloud wherein Apple does not have the ability to decrypt your images server side. I don’t see how this design makes sense unless that’s the next step
zakki 5y ago
Because most of Chinese keep silent with their government?
zug_zug 5y ago
I imagine because most of us care more about US policies in general than Chinese because most of us live in the US. If fixing Chinese lack of free communication were on the table I'm sure we'd mostly be for it, but that's a whole other thing that ultimately goes back to their government.
guerrilla 5y ago
People care more about what happens to them than others and people care more about what happens where they are than elsewhere.
mattnewton 5y ago
I mean, that’s also bad? But the CCP is not going to budge on this, and it doesn’t affect me as much as an American, so I feel like I can be upset about both and more upset about the one that affects me directly.

shuckles 5y ago

As far as is documented, the behavior of iCloud does not change, just the operator. In particular, the difference is that end to end encrypted data in iCloud remains that way, so saying all iCloud data is handed over is incorrect. In fact, iMessage is the only end to end encrypted messaging service operating in the country (for example).

whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
It’s my understanding that the keys used in that “end-to-end” encryption are also under the control of the operator [1], so from a privacy perspective it is the same as handing over that data in plaintext. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
- shuckles 5y ago
  It’s an incorrect reading of the article. The HSMs in the data center are operated by the Chinese company so any CloudKit data escrowed by Apple could be accessed, but end to end encryption keys are synced through iCloud Keychain which uses a different protocol with device secrets.
  - whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
    Do you have any sources for that? I ask because the article I linked specifically states that Apple was forced to discard the entire encryption system it uses elsewhere. It’s also hard to understand why a government would insist on this sort of data custody without the benefit of plaintext access.
    - shuckles 5y ago
      The key generation routine for iCloud Keychain is shipped in iOS and tangled with your device passcode. Chinese iPhones have the same iOS builds as iPhones everywhere, so if some backdoor code was present to have them generate iCloud Keychain keys differently, someone would have found it. Here’s what I think the article is trying to describe: 1. It is known that Apple houses Chinese iCloud user data in Chinese servers. Apple has said so: https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/apple-ceo-tim-cook-on-china-data-location-doesnt-equal-access/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/apple-ceo-ti... 2. China refuses to support Thales’s HSMs, so Apple had to build their own, presumably based on the secure element: https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/1394395078010052613?s=20 https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/13943950780100526... I think #2 is what the article characterizes as “discarding entire encryption system.” However, the encryption of iCloud Keychain isn’t dependent on HSMs in the same way the rest of iCloud data is. As a result, E2E encrypted iCloud data for Chinese users is probably still safe in China. Given physical access and non-standard HSMs, non E2E encrypted data in iCloud probably is not. It will be very interesting to track the consequences if and when iCloud moves more data into E2E encryption, since the majority of synced data is not: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
  - nicce 5y ago
    Apple put a lot of money to design that HSM to lock themselves out. Chinese can’t access iCloud Keychain as plaintext. https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/08/13/is-apples-cloud-key-vault-crypto/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/08/13/is-apple...

mindwok 5y ago

It's my understanding that Apple simply can't operate in China without playing by those rules. So really, the onus is on the CCP. In this case, is Apple being compelled to do this by the US government? Or is it a choice Apple has made purely internally? I think that makes a difference.

whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
I agree the question of whether Apple was compelled by whatever government (or if they did this voluntarily) has implications on the ethics of these decisions. They may genuinely have no choice. But I don’t see how it affects the question of whether Apple’s privacy assertions are trustworthy.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> They may genuinely have no choice. There is a choice. Don't comply and have the CCP make you stop selling there. Apple has no principles that can't be tossed aside in exchange for a large market - in other words a lot of money. This should not be unexpected.
  - whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
    Well put. Perhaps it’s cynical, I think that’s true of any corporation of Apple’s size: their only true principle is to maximize shareholder value. The best we can do as privacy-concerned mere-mortals is to take our business where those profit incentives align with our values. Apple’s put a lot of work into advertising that their profits are aligned with values of privacy, but some signs say otherwise.
    - yarky 5y ago
      You shouldn't expect privacy from a third party. You'll be disappointed by definition.
  - cwp 5y ago
    The CCP would make Apple stop manufacturing in China, which would effectively mean that they couldn't sell anything anywhere. Apple does have very deep pockets, but that would be an existential threat.

chrischen 5y ago

As an American I couldn’t care less that Chinese people’s data is handed over to Chinese people’s government, especially considering the alternative would be that Chinese people’s data is handed over to a US entity and by association the US government. Contrary to popular belief, iCloud data, while encrypted, can be decrypted by Apple and is subject to US law enforcement requests. * Considering this fact, it is pretty one-sighted to see this as some sort of unconceivable act. However if you look at it from the other side would we want all American user data (assuming Russia had a company that had such pervasive penetration into American lives as Apple does globally) to be sitting on Russian servers subject to arbitrary Russian laws? So if you only consider American interests, it’s unconceivable for us to give up such power and control over other sovereign nations, but perhaps other countries don’t care about American interests like we do. All Apple did in China was comply with local laws to stay in business there. What Apple is doing in the US is not mandated by law (as far as I know). From the American side Apple has marketed itself as privacy focused, even fighting the FBI publicly at the risk of negative publicity. This about face is unexpected but also betrays those of us who invested in the Apple product line under the expectation they continue this standard of privacy and security that was marketed. Chinese people probably never expected this level of privacy to begin with, but we did and we can. * iCloud messages backups can be decrypted

phkahler 5y ago
Tic-toc
nicce 5y ago
> Contrary to popular belief, iCloud data, while encrypted, can be decrypted by Apple and is subject to US law enforcement requests. The most seem to forget, that with this newcoming feature this is not possible anymore. Apple can’t decrypt your images anymore by request. (Read Apple’s PSI system) There is also strong evidence that same is coming for backups. On iOS 15 beta, there is backup recovery option by authentication key.
- kristjansson 5y ago
  They can’t decrypt the safety vouchers, which contain low resolution versions of your image until the conditions are met … which makes no sense as they have access to the cleartext full resolution image right there. Unless of course this is a precursor to an E2E encrypted iCloud wherein Apple does not have the ability to decrypt your images server side. I don’t see how this design makes sense unless that’s the next step

zakki 5y ago

Because most of Chinese keep silent with their government?

zug_zug 5y ago

I imagine because most of us care more about US policies in general than Chinese because most of us live in the US. If fixing Chinese lack of free communication were on the table I'm sure we'd mostly be for it, but that's a whole other thing that ultimately goes back to their government.

guerrilla 5y ago

People care more about what happens to them than others and people care more about what happens where they are than elsewhere.

mattnewton 5y ago

I mean, that’s also bad? But the CCP is not going to budge on this, and it doesn’t affect me as much as an American, so I feel like I can be upset about both and more upset about the one that affects me directly.