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Multiple subreddits are acknowledging the misinformation being spread on Reddit

46 points by xqcgrek2 5y ago

Traubenfuchs 5y ago
The covid heroes are conflating a lot of issues (and subreddits): Yes, there are crazy people that believe the vaccine will start killing everyone in a few years. But the majority of people they are hating on in their primitive sense of doing good, are those who simply disapprove of the new normal. They are against lockdowns, masks, regular vaccine mandates and further symptoms of the ongoing covid hysteria. Those are all valid positions to hold. This seems to be reddits peak do-gooder echo chamber moment.
- foerbert 5y ago
  That seems like a very... passive way to describe them. It's one thing to be unhappy with the way things are. Many people are unhappy about many things. Many of these things are fundamentally not changeable. Disliking these immutable things does not give inherent validity to harmful actions. I can hate gravity all I want, but hurling myself off a freeway overpass in protest is not justified. If nothing else, the strain on the healthcare system is a substantial harm. This is not a strictly personal freedom issue. Most people seem to understand that bodies flying across the road because of a lack of a seatbelt causes substantial harm to others. I also don't see many people complaining that they are not allowed to burn their suburban house down, despite it being their own property. That's not to say I'm for this move. I'd rather see reddit be more hands off. I'd rather go back to the days when users banded together to try to stop reddit from reaching their hands out further.
  - Traubenfuchs 5y ago
    Lockdowns, mandated vaccines and masks are not universal forces like gravity. They are laws we can change. They are rules we can follow, or not.
    - foerbert 5y ago
      Maybe it be a little more accurate to say not that you hate gravity but having something under your feet in that case, but I think the point was clear enough. Gravity is the thing that causes the consequences of stepping off the overpass. It's those consequences we find unacceptable. The same more or less goes with masks, etc. You can not wear them or follow the other rules, but natural forces ensure that doing so causes harm to others.
- millzlane 5y ago
  The people spouting about "no new normal" are ignoring facts and history. It's one more place to spread misinformation and be cheered on as only "disapproving of the new normal" and not spreading FUD. Most of them use gotcha's like "Masks don't prevent infections", "The vaccines don't work", or "lockdowns don't prevent the spread". All true statements.... technically. But there is clearly more information and nuance out there that says otherwise. They aren't pushing back against new norms either. Quarantines, lockdowns, public focus on overcrowding and public health were were popular in the early 1900's when TB AKA Consumption was hitting the US hard. We have always steered clear of sick or contagious people. The thing that they're (NNN folks) glossing over is their feelings. Their feelings don't dictate the way commerce works. Commerce needs to flow and when a global pandemic threatens that flow. Mountains will move to prevent collapse. When people are afraid of an invisible virus and are unable to tell when you have it or not, and other folks don't care and are actively spreading it or hindering the prevention of spread. You will have Mask mandates, lockdowns, and vaccines mandates by large employers. Because guess what...if a virus threatens their bottom line, you better believe they going to do everything in their power to keep the money coming. And so will every person who wants to continue to participate in a functioning society. It's as valid of a position as the argument against airbags or seatbelts.
- BizarroLand 5y ago
  Being against lockdowns is not a valid position to hold. Being against vaccine mandates is not a valid position to hold. Calling it a "do-gooder echo chamber" is a line from a comic book villain. Please tell me you can see that once it's shown to you.
  - anm89 5y ago
    Thank you BizarroLand from The Internet for giving us all the final word on which opinions are valid.
  - elzbardico 5y ago
    Thanks man. Please do give us more updates on what is acceptable thought. I would hate to be guilt of wrongthink! It would be double plus non good
    - DangitBobby 5y ago
      Comparing everything to 1984 is so lazy.
  - Traubenfuchs 5y ago
    Lockdowns caused unspeakable harm to the bodies and minds of people and greatly damaged the economy. Vaccine mandates are a human rights violation.
- belltaco 5y ago
  The issue is the rampant misinformation being passed off as facts. Not opinions on trade offs of Covid harms vs lockdowns.
fbhabbed 5y ago
The very thread and subreddit where this started is concerning in the opposite way, if you ask me. Where do you draw the line? What is misinformation and what isn't? Who decides? I read some comments in that very thread and just saying that you had a week of side effects but are glad you got the shot is enough to get an antivax label. There is a line between wanting to stop the spread of blatant nonsense and bullying people who dare ask questions and pose reasonable doubts. Not allowing different viewpoints like this and flooding even the reasonable critics with insults and mocking is what concerns me the most
- casefields 5y ago
  It's toe the government line or else... As if 2003 and WMDs is ancient history. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    I may be wrong, but it feels like the same party that was pushing the WMD theory is now pushing the antivax and no mask line.
    - mc32 5y ago
      As they say, it's "complicated". Antivaxxers by and large, used to be highly educated people (PhDs) and leaned dem. Now it's the opposite. The neo-cons who advanced the accusation of WMDs are now supporters of Biden. And, interestingly majorities in _both_ parties support the withdrawal from AF. So, it's not straightforward as you may wish.
      - rualca 5y ago
        Can you back any of your assertions with any reference? Other than everyone wanting the war in Afghanistan to end ASAP, every single one of your statements is.... Peculiar.
        5y ago
1123581321 5y ago
Fascinating. That seems to be a large community organized around unfalsifiable speculation (“we could have been better off months ago.”) It’s understandably hard to take a global view of Covid when every patient one personally knows feels like a deliberate personal attack from a family member, neighbor or Internet stranger.
908B64B197 5y ago
Keep in mind that not long ago you could get banned by simply pointing out that the lab escape theory was worth a deeper investigation. Nothing, other than a certain administration, changed in the meantime. No new evidences. Yet now experts agree it's worth investigating.
- _flagged_ 5y ago
  Which subreddits had their administration changed?
  - mwint 5y ago
    US Presidential administration.
    - hack_the_penis 5y ago
      So what..
    - _flagged_ 5y ago
      What does this have to do with reddit?
- rualca 5y ago
  > (...) you could get banned by simply pointing out that the lab escape theory was worth a deeper investigation. I feel you're heavily distorting facts and misrepresenting them disingenuously. The blend of remarks that you are referring to weren't based on a newly-found passion for the scientific method and objective thinking. I'm sure you are fully aware that you are referring instead to baseless accusations fueled by conspiracy theories on how the virus was man-made by China in it's lab. In some cases these conspiracy nuts go to the point of calling the leak intentional and even accusing it of being a bioweapon attack on the west. There are also those who for some reason insist that Fauci is the mastermind behind the lab leak and not catering to the conspiracy theorist's demands is proof the US government in general and Fauci in particular is behind the virus. And these accusations are reiterated in spite of any evidence of statement on the behalf of experts clearly refuting the conspiracy theories. So no, it's disingenuous to frame what has been happening as being evil censorship attacks on honourable truth-seekers who routinely uncover major conspiracies by doing their own research and thinking independently.
rank0 5y ago
Honestly this position is pretty backwards. Forums shouldn’t be policing content unless it’s illegal. Why is everyone so desperate for regulated discussion?
- snet0 5y ago
  > Forums shouldn't be policing content Why not?
  - COGlory 5y ago
    I'm not sure I agree with the parent that they shouldn't be policing content, but it's undeniable that doing so exacerbates echo chambers.
    - toofy 5y ago
      I can list *many* cases where echo chambers are not a bad thing at all. Of course this will depend on your definition of echo chamber, however, if any community doesn’t begin with “we hold certain things to be self-evident” then that community will be overrun with noise and off topic nonsense. It will be impossible to find any relevant signal. And anyone who doubts this only needs to look at completely hands off forums to see this. They may be fun occasionally, but these are hardly useful if you’re looking for some kind of information. Im not implying you’re doing this, but many people imply that anything other than “hands off” is an echo chamber, and honestly, this is just silly. that kind of definition of “echo chamber” is all but useless. echo chambers are hardly inherently bad.
    - rualca 5y ago
      > (...) but it's undeniable that doing so exacerbates echo chambers. No, not really. In fact, you got it exactly backwards. The problem was only made possible by these echo chambers. These conspiracy nuts create their subreddits and ban anyone who expresses any dissenting or even inconvenient information. Once these conspiracy nuts remove all reactionaries from the picture, they double down on craziness and create an environment in which everyone feeds off myths and fables repeated ad nauseum as self evident in spite of any lack of substance of bearing in reality. If these conspiracy loons weren't able to censor contrasting opinions and those calling them out on their bullshit, half these crazy rumours would not even go beyond the discussion.
antiquark 5y ago
Is anyone else troubled that the sticked comment from the moderator refers to a group of people as "plague rats", not once, but three times? This definitely hearkens back to WW2 propaganda literature.
- meepmorp 5y ago
  No, not even a little bit. I think it's great term.
carnitas 5y ago
This is ridiculous. Most subreddits will ban you for suggesting not to wear a mask anymore even if you’re fully vaccinated. It’s nothing but an attempt to control speech. R/Nonewnormal was the only place you could chat about government overreach now they want it banned. Reddit is such a cesspool nowadays. Ban any speech you don’t agree with, give me a break. Sure there were antivaxers, but I don’t believe the government should force you to inject something into your body you don’t want. And I fight for that right.
crawsome 5y ago
Those antivaxx / altright trolls are here, too.
anm89 5y ago
Someone is wrong on the internet! Not sure why in this particular instance this is newsworthy. Because in this case the users who disagree belong to the same website that has 100s of millions of users?
- jfengel 5y ago
  It's unusual for the misinformation to have quite such direct consequences. If you believe that the earth is flat or Avril Lavigne was replaced by a duplicate, it's hard to connect that to any immediate harm. But when the misinformation results in the spread of a deadly disease, it becomes noteworthy.
_flagged_ 5y ago
>But what about free speech?, some might ask. >"The Constitutional protection of free speech very specifically stops the Federal government from censoring your communications and doesn't actually apply to private entities," everyone should answer. Hmmm... where did I hear this before?
throwawaysea 5y ago
This isn’t purely “multiple subreddits”. Many of these subreddits share common sets of moderators, who are using the size of their subreddit to bolster this complaint in a misleading way, implying that they represent all those users who are subscribed to their subreddit. Recall that 92 of the top 500 subreddits are controlled by the same 5 people (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23173018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23173018). There is a small social circle of people that control a massive firehose of information based on their personal rules and whims, and this same group is now demanding further censorship that fits their worldview. Personally I’ve noticed increasingly aggressive censorship site wide, which is very upsetting given how pro free speech Reddit once was. Cofounder Aaron Swartz was famously against any censorship but now Reddit has gone so far as to omit him from their pages (https://reclaimthenet.org/aaron-swartz-reddit-founder/ https://reclaimthenet.org/aaron-swartz-reddit-founder/). Reddit’s leadership was “taken over” and its original mission was slowly corrupted in favor of censorship. I used to not care about this issue until it came to affect me directly. Mods aggressively shape opinion. I was banned in one subreddit early in the pandemic for advocating for masking, and then banned elsewhere for supporting the lab leak hypothesis. With the Jan 6 Capitol riot I was banned in one subreddit for drawing comparisons against past incidents at the Capitol and rioting from 2020. I was banned elsewhere for claiming Trump’s election complaints should be investigated by authorities rather than tried in the court of public opinion. Each subreddit has its own special flavor of echo chamber cultivated by aggressive mods, through a mix of their rules and mod actions undertaken with little transparency. The division in our society feels fueled by such social media, since no one is allowed to freely and authentically interact anymore, which is white depressing. I really wish there was a way for better products to compete against the network effects of incumbents like Reddit. There is a long list of alternatives (https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/oioeot/list_of_active_reddit_alternatives_v7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/oioeot/...) but I don’t see any having much of a chance. The only ones that did have a chance, Gab and Parler, were attacked and banned in a coordinated manner from app stores and elsewhere. They also carried their own biases from what I’ve read. Is there a way to avoid ending up with a Balkanized internet of echo chambers?
- carnitas 5y ago
  I can’t think of a reason why you are so highly downvoted for speaking the truth. Sad state of affairs.
thunkshift1 5y ago
Is this really surprising? I thought it was common knowledge

46 points by xqcgrek2 5y ago

The covid heroes are conflating a lot of issues (and subreddits): Yes, there are crazy people that believe the vaccine will start killing everyone in a few years. But the majority of people they are hating on in their primitive sense of doing good, are those who simply disapprove of the new normal. They are against lockdowns, masks, regular vaccine mandates and further symptoms of the ongoing covid hysteria. Those are all valid positions to hold. This seems to be reddits peak do-gooder echo chamber moment.

foerbert 5y ago
That seems like a very... passive way to describe them. It's one thing to be unhappy with the way things are. Many people are unhappy about many things. Many of these things are fundamentally not changeable. Disliking these immutable things does not give inherent validity to harmful actions. I can hate gravity all I want, but hurling myself off a freeway overpass in protest is not justified. If nothing else, the strain on the healthcare system is a substantial harm. This is not a strictly personal freedom issue. Most people seem to understand that bodies flying across the road because of a lack of a seatbelt causes substantial harm to others. I also don't see many people complaining that they are not allowed to burn their suburban house down, despite it being their own property. That's not to say I'm for this move. I'd rather see reddit be more hands off. I'd rather go back to the days when users banded together to try to stop reddit from reaching their hands out further.
- Traubenfuchs 5y ago
  Lockdowns, mandated vaccines and masks are not universal forces like gravity. They are laws we can change. They are rules we can follow, or not.
  - foerbert 5y ago
    Maybe it be a little more accurate to say not that you hate gravity but having something under your feet in that case, but I think the point was clear enough. Gravity is the thing that causes the consequences of stepping off the overpass. It's those consequences we find unacceptable. The same more or less goes with masks, etc. You can not wear them or follow the other rules, but natural forces ensure that doing so causes harm to others.
millzlane 5y ago
The people spouting about "no new normal" are ignoring facts and history. It's one more place to spread misinformation and be cheered on as only "disapproving of the new normal" and not spreading FUD. Most of them use gotcha's like "Masks don't prevent infections", "The vaccines don't work", or "lockdowns don't prevent the spread". All true statements.... technically. But there is clearly more information and nuance out there that says otherwise. They aren't pushing back against new norms either. Quarantines, lockdowns, public focus on overcrowding and public health were were popular in the early 1900's when TB AKA Consumption was hitting the US hard. We have always steered clear of sick or contagious people. The thing that they're (NNN folks) glossing over is their feelings. Their feelings don't dictate the way commerce works. Commerce needs to flow and when a global pandemic threatens that flow. Mountains will move to prevent collapse. When people are afraid of an invisible virus and are unable to tell when you have it or not, and other folks don't care and are actively spreading it or hindering the prevention of spread. You will have Mask mandates, lockdowns, and vaccines mandates by large employers. Because guess what...if a virus threatens their bottom line, you better believe they going to do everything in their power to keep the money coming. And so will every person who wants to continue to participate in a functioning society. It's as valid of a position as the argument against airbags or seatbelts.
BizarroLand 5y ago
Being against lockdowns is not a valid position to hold. Being against vaccine mandates is not a valid position to hold. Calling it a "do-gooder echo chamber" is a line from a comic book villain. Please tell me you can see that once it's shown to you.
- anm89 5y ago
  Thank you BizarroLand from The Internet for giving us all the final word on which opinions are valid.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Thanks man. Please do give us more updates on what is acceptable thought. I would hate to be guilt of wrongthink! It would be double plus non good
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    Comparing everything to 1984 is so lazy.
- Traubenfuchs 5y ago
  Lockdowns caused unspeakable harm to the bodies and minds of people and greatly damaged the economy. Vaccine mandates are a human rights violation.
belltaco 5y ago
The issue is the rampant misinformation being passed off as facts. Not opinions on trade offs of Covid harms vs lockdowns.

fbhabbed 5y ago

The very thread and subreddit where this started is concerning in the opposite way, if you ask me. Where do you draw the line? What is misinformation and what isn't? Who decides? I read some comments in that very thread and just saying that you had a week of side effects but are glad you got the shot is enough to get an antivax label. There is a line between wanting to stop the spread of blatant nonsense and bullying people who dare ask questions and pose reasonable doubts. Not allowing different viewpoints like this and flooding even the reasonable critics with insults and mocking is what concerns me the most

casefields 5y ago
It's toe the government line or else... As if 2003 and WMDs is ancient history. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  I may be wrong, but it feels like the same party that was pushing the WMD theory is now pushing the antivax and no mask line.
  - mc32 5y ago
    As they say, it's "complicated". Antivaxxers by and large, used to be highly educated people (PhDs) and leaned dem. Now it's the opposite. The neo-cons who advanced the accusation of WMDs are now supporters of Biden. And, interestingly majorities in _both_ parties support the withdrawal from AF. So, it's not straightforward as you may wish.
    - rualca 5y ago
      Can you back any of your assertions with any reference? Other than everyone wanting the war in Afghanistan to end ASAP, every single one of your statements is.... Peculiar.
      - 5y ago

1123581321 5y ago

Fascinating. That seems to be a large community organized around unfalsifiable speculation (“we could have been better off months ago.”) It’s understandably hard to take a global view of Covid when every patient one personally knows feels like a deliberate personal attack from a family member, neighbor or Internet stranger.

908B64B197 5y ago

Keep in mind that not long ago you could get banned by simply pointing out that the lab escape theory was worth a deeper investigation. Nothing, other than a certain administration, changed in the meantime. No new evidences. Yet now experts agree it's worth investigating.

_flagged_ 5y ago
Which subreddits had their administration changed?
- mwint 5y ago
  US Presidential administration.
  - hack_the_penis 5y ago
    So what..
  - _flagged_ 5y ago
    What does this have to do with reddit?
rualca 5y ago
> (...) you could get banned by simply pointing out that the lab escape theory was worth a deeper investigation. I feel you're heavily distorting facts and misrepresenting them disingenuously. The blend of remarks that you are referring to weren't based on a newly-found passion for the scientific method and objective thinking. I'm sure you are fully aware that you are referring instead to baseless accusations fueled by conspiracy theories on how the virus was man-made by China in it's lab. In some cases these conspiracy nuts go to the point of calling the leak intentional and even accusing it of being a bioweapon attack on the west. There are also those who for some reason insist that Fauci is the mastermind behind the lab leak and not catering to the conspiracy theorist's demands is proof the US government in general and Fauci in particular is behind the virus. And these accusations are reiterated in spite of any evidence of statement on the behalf of experts clearly refuting the conspiracy theories. So no, it's disingenuous to frame what has been happening as being evil censorship attacks on honourable truth-seekers who routinely uncover major conspiracies by doing their own research and thinking independently.

rank0 5y ago

Honestly this position is pretty backwards. Forums shouldn’t be policing content unless it’s illegal. Why is everyone so desperate for regulated discussion?

snet0 5y ago
> Forums shouldn't be policing content Why not?
- COGlory 5y ago
  I'm not sure I agree with the parent that they shouldn't be policing content, but it's undeniable that doing so exacerbates echo chambers.
  - toofy 5y ago
    I can list *many* cases where echo chambers are not a bad thing at all. Of course this will depend on your definition of echo chamber, however, if any community doesn’t begin with “we hold certain things to be self-evident” then that community will be overrun with noise and off topic nonsense. It will be impossible to find any relevant signal. And anyone who doubts this only needs to look at completely hands off forums to see this. They may be fun occasionally, but these are hardly useful if you’re looking for some kind of information. Im not implying you’re doing this, but many people imply that anything other than “hands off” is an echo chamber, and honestly, this is just silly. that kind of definition of “echo chamber” is all but useless. echo chambers are hardly inherently bad.
  - rualca 5y ago
    > (...) but it's undeniable that doing so exacerbates echo chambers. No, not really. In fact, you got it exactly backwards. The problem was only made possible by these echo chambers. These conspiracy nuts create their subreddits and ban anyone who expresses any dissenting or even inconvenient information. Once these conspiracy nuts remove all reactionaries from the picture, they double down on craziness and create an environment in which everyone feeds off myths and fables repeated ad nauseum as self evident in spite of any lack of substance of bearing in reality. If these conspiracy loons weren't able to censor contrasting opinions and those calling them out on their bullshit, half these crazy rumours would not even go beyond the discussion.

antiquark 5y ago

Is anyone else troubled that the sticked comment from the moderator refers to a group of people as "plague rats", not once, but three times? This definitely hearkens back to WW2 propaganda literature.

meepmorp 5y ago
No, not even a little bit. I think it's great term.

carnitas 5y ago

This is ridiculous. Most subreddits will ban you for suggesting not to wear a mask anymore even if you’re fully vaccinated. It’s nothing but an attempt to control speech. R/Nonewnormal was the only place you could chat about government overreach now they want it banned. Reddit is such a cesspool nowadays. Ban any speech you don’t agree with, give me a break. Sure there were antivaxers, but I don’t believe the government should force you to inject something into your body you don’t want. And I fight for that right.

crawsome 5y ago

Those antivaxx / altright trolls are here, too.

anm89 5y ago

Someone is wrong on the internet! Not sure why in this particular instance this is newsworthy. Because in this case the users who disagree belong to the same website that has 100s of millions of users?

jfengel 5y ago
It's unusual for the misinformation to have quite such direct consequences. If you believe that the earth is flat or Avril Lavigne was replaced by a duplicate, it's hard to connect that to any immediate harm. But when the misinformation results in the spread of a deadly disease, it becomes noteworthy.

_flagged_ 5y ago

>But what about free speech?, some might ask. >"The Constitutional protection of free speech very specifically stops the Federal government from censoring your communications and doesn't actually apply to private entities," everyone should answer. Hmmm... where did I hear this before?

throwawaysea 5y ago

This isn’t purely “multiple subreddits”. Many of these subreddits share common sets of moderators, who are using the size of their subreddit to bolster this complaint in a misleading way, implying that they represent all those users who are subscribed to their subreddit. Recall that 92 of the top 500 subreddits are controlled by the same 5 people (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23173018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23173018). There is a small social circle of people that control a massive firehose of information based on their personal rules and whims, and this same group is now demanding further censorship that fits their worldview. Personally I’ve noticed increasingly aggressive censorship site wide, which is very upsetting given how pro free speech Reddit once was. Cofounder Aaron Swartz was famously against any censorship but now Reddit has gone so far as to omit him from their pages (https://reclaimthenet.org/aaron-swartz-reddit-founder/ https://reclaimthenet.org/aaron-swartz-reddit-founder/). Reddit’s leadership was “taken over” and its original mission was slowly corrupted in favor of censorship. I used to not care about this issue until it came to affect me directly. Mods aggressively shape opinion. I was banned in one subreddit early in the pandemic for advocating for masking, and then banned elsewhere for supporting the lab leak hypothesis. With the Jan 6 Capitol riot I was banned in one subreddit for drawing comparisons against past incidents at the Capitol and rioting from 2020. I was banned elsewhere for claiming Trump’s election complaints should be investigated by authorities rather than tried in the court of public opinion. Each subreddit has its own special flavor of echo chamber cultivated by aggressive mods, through a mix of their rules and mod actions undertaken with little transparency. The division in our society feels fueled by such social media, since no one is allowed to freely and authentically interact anymore, which is white depressing. I really wish there was a way for better products to compete against the network effects of incumbents like Reddit. There is a long list of alternatives (https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/oioeot/list_of_active_reddit_alternatives_v7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/oioeot/...) but I don’t see any having much of a chance. The only ones that did have a chance, Gab and Parler, were attacked and banned in a coordinated manner from app stores and elsewhere. They also carried their own biases from what I’ve read. Is there a way to avoid ending up with a Balkanized internet of echo chambers?

carnitas 5y ago
I can’t think of a reason why you are so highly downvoted for speaking the truth. Sad state of affairs.

thunkshift1 5y ago

Is this really surprising? I thought it was common knowledge