9 ms·

I'd venture a guess that (especially in SV/venture tech startups in general) that bias also comes from young folks not having many/any external commitments, so

I'd venture a guess that (especially in SV/venture tech startups in general) that bias also comes from young folks not having many/any external commitments, so may be easier to get to work longer hours - someone with a family probably can't pull a 60 hour week as easily as someone living in a microstudio with few other cares in the world, yeah?

gabereiser 5y ago
Absolutely this. It's easier to force younger coders into a slave-like work environment, complete with beer on tap, foosball tables, and other amenities to get them to live at the office to constantly work on the product(s). I can't say it's like that everywhere, but most startups are _designed_ to take advantage of their workforce to quickly "move fast and break things" looking for their market fit.
- cjohnson318 5y ago
  I'd like to see numbers on how many companies actually have beer on tap, or foosball/ping-pong tables at work in 2021. I worked at a place with a foosball and ping-pong table in 2018, but they were infrequently used, and when they were in use, it was always the same three guys.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > they were infrequently used, and when they were in use, it was always the same three guys. Incidentally most startups I've been part of, there were just a few guys doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting while the rest treated it as just another 9-5.
    - echelon 5y ago
      > Incidentally most startups I've been part of, there were just a few guys doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting Is there a way to identify that talent and pay them more? Or find them and poach them?
      - pengaru 5y ago
        Troll public git repositories for committers with the greatest number of hours having commits, then audit for quality? I assumed this was the kind of thing Microsoft was already doing with both github and linkedin under their belt, either for bolstering their own ranks or as a paid service to offer recruiters.
        echelon 5y ago
        Nadella is a genius. He made the biggest land grab for developer and engineer mindshare in history, and Microsoft will be able to turn that into advantages across so many different efforts. They're playing at the next level. Google, sigh...
        api 5y ago
        Sure he didn’t get the idea from sweaty Steve Ballmer? “Developers developers developers developers!”
  - gmadsen 5y ago
    The beer on tap exists up until the point that an HR person is hired. I've worked at a few companies that had kegs. Some seemed to make it a habit to drink and code late into the night, which I rarely did, but to me it at least signals that corporate BS hasn't infiltrated the company yet.
    - herval 5y ago
      It exists until the moment there are _HR violations_ - just like any other practice that's acceptable at an early stage as it grows. I've worked at 10k+ companies that still had beer on tap, and they obviously had huge HR departments.
  - jdiv 5y ago
    I recall a ping-pong table at an IBM branch office 55 years ago but it was only used at lunch hour. As a consultant at dozens of companies, I've seen a lot of neat perks especially in Silicon Valley but no beer taps.
- fatnoah 5y ago
  >It's easier to force younger coders into a slave-like work environment, complete with beer on tap, foosball tables, and other amenities to get them to live at the office to constantly work on the product(s) For me as a young coder, the long hours were less about office amenities and more about me a) wanting to get the work done and b) not having a whole lot of other things to do. I got to work at 9:00am or so, and if I stayed until 9:00pm, I'd still have energy to go out to dinner with friends/roommates until midnight or so. Rinse & repeat. As a 20+ year older version of myself, getting home late means I don't see my child before he goes to bed. I also go to bed earlier because I'm up and awake to deal with said child by 6-6:30am at the latest.
quantified 5y ago
Sure, and yet for the experienced devs that make fewer mistakes and things that can be iterated on more easily, they get the same amount done in less than 60 hours. Also, once the dev's kids are in college, their time frees up tremendously. I'm not sure that's recognized.
- webmaven 5y ago
  Yeah, but you aren't allowed to ask about a candidate's marital or parental status, and age (at the crude not-a-20-something level) is usually apparent without having to ask.
  - quantified 5y ago
    Yep, true. Having a resume that stretches back to when the recruiter was watching Teletubbies makes it super apparent.
webmaven 5y ago
Even absent external commitments (which, BTW, also biases towards men), older folks are often more resistant to 60 hour weeks since they've either observed or experienced burnout and understand that these unsustainable death marches typically result in lower productivity, more bugs, bad code, and mounds of technical debt.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  I generalize of course but I think older people realize there's more to life than the office and career. Takeaway pizza behind a laptop feels less glamorous at age 40.
  - webmaven 5y ago
    Sure, the "you can't pay me enough to have me sacrifice my life outside of work" POV dovetails perfectly with the "a lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine", "you can't pay me enough to sacrifice my physical or mental health", and "why would I join a company that can't figure out how to work sustainably" ones.
  - cudgy 5y ago
    Was hoping that millennials and now Gen Z were seeing this sooner than the previous generations. Which gen are you from?

gabereiser 5y ago

Absolutely this. It's easier to force younger coders into a slave-like work environment, complete with beer on tap, foosball tables, and other amenities to get them to live at the office to constantly work on the product(s). I can't say it's like that everywhere, but most startups are _designed_ to take advantage of their workforce to quickly "move fast and break things" looking for their market fit.

cjohnson318 5y ago
I'd like to see numbers on how many companies actually have beer on tap, or foosball/ping-pong tables at work in 2021. I worked at a place with a foosball and ping-pong table in 2018, but they were infrequently used, and when they were in use, it was always the same three guys.
- pengaru 5y ago
  > they were infrequently used, and when they were in use, it was always the same three guys. Incidentally most startups I've been part of, there were just a few guys doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting while the rest treated it as just another 9-5.
  - echelon 5y ago
    > Incidentally most startups I've been part of, there were just a few guys doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting Is there a way to identify that talent and pay them more? Or find them and poach them?
    - pengaru 5y ago
      Troll public git repositories for committers with the greatest number of hours having commits, then audit for quality? I assumed this was the kind of thing Microsoft was already doing with both github and linkedin under their belt, either for bolstering their own ranks or as a paid service to offer recruiters.
      - echelon 5y ago
        Nadella is a genius. He made the biggest land grab for developer and engineer mindshare in history, and Microsoft will be able to turn that into advantages across so many different efforts. They're playing at the next level. Google, sigh...
        api 5y ago
        Sure he didn’t get the idea from sweaty Steve Ballmer? “Developers developers developers developers!”
- gmadsen 5y ago
  The beer on tap exists up until the point that an HR person is hired. I've worked at a few companies that had kegs. Some seemed to make it a habit to drink and code late into the night, which I rarely did, but to me it at least signals that corporate BS hasn't infiltrated the company yet.
  - herval 5y ago
    It exists until the moment there are _HR violations_ - just like any other practice that's acceptable at an early stage as it grows. I've worked at 10k+ companies that still had beer on tap, and they obviously had huge HR departments.
- jdiv 5y ago
  I recall a ping-pong table at an IBM branch office 55 years ago but it was only used at lunch hour. As a consultant at dozens of companies, I've seen a lot of neat perks especially in Silicon Valley but no beer taps.
fatnoah 5y ago
>It's easier to force younger coders into a slave-like work environment, complete with beer on tap, foosball tables, and other amenities to get them to live at the office to constantly work on the product(s) For me as a young coder, the long hours were less about office amenities and more about me a) wanting to get the work done and b) not having a whole lot of other things to do. I got to work at 9:00am or so, and if I stayed until 9:00pm, I'd still have energy to go out to dinner with friends/roommates until midnight or so. Rinse & repeat. As a 20+ year older version of myself, getting home late means I don't see my child before he goes to bed. I also go to bed earlier because I'm up and awake to deal with said child by 6-6:30am at the latest.

quantified 5y ago

Sure, and yet for the experienced devs that make fewer mistakes and things that can be iterated on more easily, they get the same amount done in less than 60 hours. Also, once the dev's kids are in college, their time frees up tremendously. I'm not sure that's recognized.

webmaven 5y ago
Yeah, but you aren't allowed to ask about a candidate's marital or parental status, and age (at the crude not-a-20-something level) is usually apparent without having to ask.
- quantified 5y ago
  Yep, true. Having a resume that stretches back to when the recruiter was watching Teletubbies makes it super apparent.

webmaven 5y ago

Even absent external commitments (which, BTW, also biases towards men), older folks are often more resistant to 60 hour weeks since they've either observed or experienced burnout and understand that these unsustainable death marches typically result in lower productivity, more bugs, bad code, and mounds of technical debt.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
I generalize of course but I think older people realize there's more to life than the office and career. Takeaway pizza behind a laptop feels less glamorous at age 40.
- webmaven 5y ago
  Sure, the "you can't pay me enough to have me sacrifice my life outside of work" POV dovetails perfectly with the "a lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine", "you can't pay me enough to sacrifice my physical or mental health", and "why would I join a company that can't figure out how to work sustainably" ones.
- cudgy 5y ago
  Was hoping that millennials and now Gen Z were seeing this sooner than the previous generations. Which gen are you from?